2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

I just found out over on dubforce that the G-Werks Manifold is for left hookers, they never made a corrado right hand manifold. That explains alot infact that's what Ian Birch at PipeWerx said at the time. " It's as though it's for a left hooker!"

W3RKD wrote:We do one which we also supply to a few german companys that market them .. Only ours and TEZAT (if they are still around?) do a 1.75" primary manifold for the G60 although ours are for LHD fitment also. We have fitted these to many corrados but beware you need to wrap the steering boot for heat reasons

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Near bloody set my car on fire!! WTF!

Still saving for the remap.

**** I'm not the only one!!!

the only rhd ones on he market are TSR ones by milltek.

i have a gwerks one and it set my boot on fire lol! even though it was wrapped! now i run without a boot.

Well, that's a bit poop! They don't make a point of saying that when they sell them, and in fact JMC has one and G-werks told him that his warranty would be void if he wrapped it, as it can cause it to fracture IIRC. I think we should bring this to JMCs attention, as I'm sure he doesn't want a fire either.

I'd be tempted to get a TSR one. Running without a boot will let a load of water in places it's not supposed to go wont it?

I've sorted mine by using some aluminium out of a laptop as a heatshield and stainless steel ties to hold the boot and aluminium away from the exhaust. I'm going sort out a custom manifold and run the standard downpipe CAT and exhaust when I've finished getting it mapped for the new head. I really don't think it will hurt the performance that much, in fact I'll dyno it afterwards at Awesome, I bet it doesn't make much difference. I won't remap it though that's it for me and spending money on this particular engine, until the charger needs a rebuild. As a daily car I don't really want to take things any further, I just want to prove longevity of the design and enjoy the car. But the exhaust system has to go!!

I'm rambling as it's quiet in work.

Running without a boot is noisy and damp, the TSR one I don't think is specific to the G60 so I don't know what benefit that would give.

mrbeige wrote:Well, that's a bit poop! They don't make a point of saying that when they sell them, and in fact JMC has one and G-werks told him that his warranty would be void if he wrapped it, as it can cause it to fracture IIRC. I think we should bring this to JMCs attention, as I'm sure he doesn't want a fire either.

I'd be tempted to get a TSR one. Running without a boot will let a load of water in places it's not supposed to go wont it?

Thanks guys - I wasn't aware of that - I assumed (never a good thing) they were for rhd. And yes you are right, I was told the warranty would be void if it was wrapped. Next time I'm under there I'll check and make sure everything is fine round the steering boot.

Things I need or need to do:-

1. An ABF headgaset! - ordered n paid for
2. G60 8v Exhaust gaskets - ordered n paid for
3. Gonna make another custom matched intake gasket for future reference. - ordered n paid for
4. Coolant take off gaskets n seals - ordered n paid for
5. Decide whether to go with the lucas/denso type disc injectors I have and if so get them tested. Or get bosch greentype or the new type 3's, can't decide! Going with the Lucas injectors untested
6. Sort out the bottom end breathing which is currently as standard. Leaving as it is for now due to lazyness.
7. Throttle body Gasket - ordered n paid for
8. New u-bend boost pipe - £100+ not going to happen, current one will hold for now.
9. Possibly a new distributor just incase it is inaccurate. - £80 not going to happen
10. What ever else I've forgotten! Oh yeah make some time and think of an excuse to tell the missus for me messing around with my car again! I forgot coolant! doh! Excuse made Changing injectors for the final 2nd session of mapping now the engines bedded in fully!
11. Head Bolts - ordered n paid for
12. Fit Head
13. Get mapped

So all that is left to do is fit head and get it mapped. I can't get in touch with Wayne at Chipwizards even though I've left messages spoke to his wife, Texted him as instructed by wife, etc. So if he don't want my business I guess I can't expect him to do his best mapping the car.

Now I've raised a little extra cash by selling the current rebuilt head to Joe (aka Melissa, Sonicriot13 on here) I've decided to fit the new head on the weekend of the 12th Sept with the current injectors and take it over to Awesome-GTi for the new injectors to be fitted and for mapping, they can also check my co idle with the new injectors as at my MOT on Friday it was 5% a 10 fold increase over previous maps that just can't be attributed to the cam and cc increase IMHO used to be 0.5% and had been for the last 3 years with lots of previous maps so I don't know what's up with that or even if it can be attributed to the remap. Awesome charge by the hour but if I take it on a Saturday or late on a Friday And tell them I need it back at the end of the day they can only charge me for 6-7 hours which should be enough. It means i don't have to take it there after having the car mapped somewhere else to get a graph comparison (£70) and they're only 30 miles away if I have issues and they are a professional established business. So I'm comfortable with my decision as I do need the car on a daily basis. It means I can't directly compare the results due to the fact someone else has mapped it but not much I can do about that.

Roll on the 12th of September!!

I just got turned away by Awesome! I think I frightened the sales guy when I said it was completely non-standard! Back to the drawing board then.

EDIT: Just phoned Stealth and they aren't interested in mapping the car on 440cc injectors, they're talking about it taking maybe 2 days to get it right and then I might have a rubbish cold start. Said he thought I was mad to fit 440cc injectors due to the way the G60 ECU controls the injectors. He then suggested a VR fuel pump and remote adjustable fuel reg set to maybe 4 bar as a better option but I wouldn't want to fit that lot and the cost is more prohibitive than anything else plus the distance they are from me.

I'm thinking of maybe just getting a porsche 3.5bar reg with the new fuel pump and see how I get on.

It's rather depressing!! Everyone is frightened of working on my car!!

That sort of thing really gets on my t1ts. Why bother being in business, if you are going to turn stuff away. Interestingly enough though, JMC was also told by Stealth that 440cc injectors would be too big for his G too.

Have you asked JP (JNL) if he knows anyone who'd do the mapping? I know he is miles from you though.

In fact, I wonder if the fact that it is totally non-standard is putting them off, because it wouldn't be easy??

Mmmmm I don't know. On the one hand you have Rob saying his car is fine on 440cc injectors and on the other Vince at stealth saying don't go near them. Maybe 370cc injectors would be the answer? As JMC has already eluded to. I don't want to mess around with the fuel pressures if I can help it.

ok it is non standard but it is hardly exotic.
More displacment and a re-worked head.
FFS,what's to be scared about?
They do this $hitt for a living.
It's an engine.

The injectors aren't too big in my experience.
My injectors are also batched fired.At a pulsewidth of 2.1 mSecs I can hit a stable 14.7 afr.
2 msecs firing duration is more than enough time for the injectors to open properly.

Hmm...dunno what to suggest.
yes I do
Go Emerald.

mrbeige wrote:Why bother being in business, if you are going to turn stuff away. Interestingly enough though, JMC was also told by Stealth that 440cc injectors would be too big for his G too.

Have you tried programming Digipants to use different injectors?

Try it and then repeat that statement

I was talking about Awesome, rather than Stealth. Stealth said they'd be able to do xyz, which I felt was fine, it was Awesome's flat 'no' that surprises me. From my experience selling Car Audio (different product I know, but I feel there are similarities), a customer says he wants some 8" mids on the rear shelf and tweeters up front, to which I say "that's not ideal, and you wont get a good balanced sound, but I can suggest that you use 6" mids in the doors with a pair of tweeters". That to me is the correct type of response from a company that wants to do business.

I would expect any of these tuning companies to know what works and what doesn't, especially ones that have been about for a while. I also have no knowledge of how good or bad Digifant is, although the name does lend itself well to the afore mentioned malapropism

I can see where Vince is coming from. The leap from red tops to the green 440's is huge - a 30% increase in max flow rate. Now if my reds are just hitting 90% duty cycle and I'm generating 248bhp, putting on the greens seems like over kill, becuase it's going to bring the peak flow down to 60ish% duty cycle. And as Kev says digipants isn't the best to be brutally honest.

When I get my eprom reader from egay, I'll take a look at some of my maps and see what the duty cycle is like at idle with the reds, and how that compares to the standard ones. That might give an idea of how short the cycle becomes for these larger injectors at idle.

Well i phoned back Vince and we came to the conclusion that the best option was a midway point on the injector flow rate and I said I'd either turn up with some EV6 360cc injectors fitted or with a porsche 3.5bar fuel reg. After some thought and a few calculations and the knowledge that Berno at Chipwizards managed some impressive although flawed figures that 315cc Red EV1 injectors with a 3.5bar fuel reg I've decided to go with a 3.5bar fuel reg and new bosch fuel pump as this seems the best most uncomplicated way forward. This will give me a maximum flow rate of 354cc static, and at 95% duty based on my reds currently being around 95% duty enough fuel to support 250bhp or by my reckoning 235bhp at the wheels on Awesome's Dynojet rollers.

But I'm starting to see why the simplicity of the G60 Digifant makes things more difficult at high levels of tune. It does seem wierd that as you open the throttle the engine looks for a change in MAP rather than air flow increase or throttle position.

And as you produce a better breathing engine the range of MAP is reduced so instead of having a range of -0.25 bar to +1 bar you only have -0.25 to 0.5 bar. And I suppose with less MAP range and larger injectors 16x16 resolution has reduced effectiveness. I wonder if fitting a map sensor with say 0.7 bar as a maximum would be preferable and give back that resolution say 150Kpa??

That last bit was just me thinking out loud and could be complete ****!

I would think that with less MAP range and the same size injector tables, you would actually increase your accuracy, but then that would depend on the resolution of the internal variables.

Say for your variable MAP you have a maximum range of -1 to 1, and it has a resolution of 0.0625 (2^-4), having a smaller range that is in use at -0.25 to 0.25 with the same resolution will make it less accurate, so it will more likely be rounding actually MAP up or down more aggresively, but if the resolution is sufficiently accurate in the first place, say 0.00390625 (2^-8) , you will have more control as the total range is smaller and will be still divided that up into a 16x16 map. It would have the same effect as going from a 16x16 map to a 32x32 map (not mathematically correct, but I hope you catch my drift)

99% of engine ECUs, particularly the early ones use fixed point mathematics, so when multiplying and dividing internally you lose resolution, which can be quite dramatic. I'd imagine that Digipants will be using a 16bit Micro too, so that limits it's capability somewhat.

Yes that what I'm saying, I imagine with MS you can set your range from say -1 to your maximum boost and divide that up by you 12x12 I think but with a G60 ECU you effectively are only using 3/4 of the range to map the car or even worse half the range in the positive boost range. And as you say you can't change the maths you have to trick it by fitting a suitable map sensor for the range being used.

TBH Vince will answer the phone and he will talk to you which is rare. He is 3 b'stard southerly hours away but I'll just keep an eye on the EGT temps. Anyone want to buy some Lucas 440cc injectors for their 16v turbo project, wink, wink!

I guess that with Digipants, you can't change the values of the axes on the map??

ctwg60 wrote:Anyone want to buy some Lucas 440cc injectors for their 16v turbo project, wink, wink!

How much? and can you wait till the after my wedding? (Sept 22nd)

mrbeige wrote:I guess that with Digipants, you can't change the values of the axes on the map??

ctwg60 wrote:Anyone want to buy some Lucas 440cc injectors for their 16v turbo project, wink, wink!

How much? and can you wait till the after my wedding? (Sept 22nd)

£80 posted? Yes I can wait.

£80 sounds good to me, awesome! that's another thing off the list now

LOL.

I swear you only come on here to make money.

What do think of the digi-difficulty with reduced boost measured by the map sensor over the same or larger rev range?

Trust me, just do what Vince recommends.

EV6 injectors are mostly split patten for 4 valve heads, so make sure the spray isn't too wide or you could end up just soaking the inlet walls and puddling.

Why would improving engine flow reduce MAP range? If you put a 16V or 20V head on it, it will still see a bar of boost if that's what the charger / turbo is pushing into the engine.

It's true that a 1D map is hopeless for na, let alone boost, but at full throttle it should still see the same boost as before. Unless I misunderstood what you typed?

Engines VE will improve more of the available air will make it into the cylinders as the engine will be pumping more air per cycle.This will result in lower manifold pressures.

My MAP numbers have definately gone down.
Use to have 0.8 bar at full chat.
Now only see 0.45 ~ 0.5.

Nope you did not misunderstand. On a G60 as you improve the engines ability to ingest air, the charger continues to create the same boost throughout the rev range so you manifold pressure gets less compared to a standard car. I used to see just under 1 bar of boost (measured in the inlet manifold) with the 1.8 engine with standard cam. Now I only see 0.76 bar of boost at peak revs with a mild schrick cam and larger 2.0L bottom end.

I've decided to go with a 3.5 bar reg, just waiting for a call back from a parts supplier. Oh there we go phone just rang £59.75 will be in tomorrow.

ECU takes it's que from the manifold pressure with a 200kpa map sensor -1 bar to 1 bar range.

kevhaywire wrote:<SNIP>Why would improving engine flow reduce MAP range? If you put a 16V or 20V head on it, it will still see a bar of boost if that's what the charger / turbo is pushing into the engine.<SNIP>

I was always under the impression, if a turbocharged engine/head can flow more air then the manifold pressure (boost pressure) would actually reduce as a consequence? The boost producing device may be a deciding factor in all this. A turbochargers boost level is controlled by the wastegate, and thus the boost pressure will remain constant no matter how the head flows, but the actual amount of air consumed would increase, and thus the turbo works harder. With a G supercharger, the boost is determined by charger speed, and thus the crank speed, so if the engine can consume more air then the manifold pressure will be reduced.





.....I think.....

[/EDIT] Beat me to it Chris