CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

OK I've changed my mind it has to be a turbo VR! I just can't it out of my head. Reminds me of when I started thinking about a 2ltr G60. Oppps! Don't tell the wife!

ok,but I bet it won't be ghetto like you said it would be.
It's not gonna happen.
I'll start making up the spare bed.

It'll take me ages and won't be cheap, but it's cheaper than buying a Veyron. Power to weight, Without driving round in a tin can.

ctwvr6 i didn't like the two engine idea so i'm happy your going this way.

Yeah it was a dream, the noise and effortless power of a VRT seems more attractive now.

You going 12v or 24v?

12v as it's cheaper and available. I'll have a good look at the stealth kit on saturday as a starting strategy.

There is a guy selling a 2.8 OBD2 12v short block on CF with ARP rod and head bolts, new OEM oil pump etc etc etc. £500. Not sure if it's sold or not. Would defo be a good starting point

also u mean Sunday at stealth rite?

VR bottom end clicky

I do like the VR a lot.

Toad wrote:I do like the VR a lot.

Me too! I still want to stick a Heaton on Tubbs

VRT thought, Chris...like your style. I think you need to approach it the same way you've done with the G. I'm convinced the results will be very good

Yes Sunday, changed my mind again! 24v! Saw that block but I'd rather start with a full engine when I do start.

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Thanks for the vote of confidence beige-one. If I can i think I'd go the opposite way to how I did the G60 and concentrate on making a high boosting engine with forged pistons of standard bore, ARP everything and a monstrously big turbo, just started reading up seems a GT35 of one sort or another would do but would like to use the biggest possible as I won't be worrying about low-end daily driving. Just want to go balls out for maximum power and I guess the 24v would be the right choice for air flow and revs. Do it once & do it right cos I will never be doing it again. Has to be DTA management too for the support and the launch control. MSD wasted spark high discharge coils etc. I'd like to run 2 bar eventually so probably plumb for 8.5:1 CR.

First job I'll d is reroute all the brake pipes and wiring from the back of the engine so they don't cook!

Need some big mofo brakes as well.

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Oooo lovely, I feel motivated!

Can this be split off into a new topic "CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow build."

Found these. Not a bad price either!

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ctwg60 wrote:Can this be split off into a new topic "CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow build."

Found these. Not a bad price either!

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Hmm.... a good combo.

Tks Stuart.

OK so this is going to take me some time I reckon maximum I can throw at this is around 2k a year, but that means it will keep me out of trouble for the next 5-10 years. As I have a tendency to go overboard with specs and detail I thought I may as well start with the best engine I can get and this ultimately led to the conclusion that it would be better to start with an R32 engine there seem to be plenty about and for around £1200 it would be worth the extra money. What I am a bit in the dark about is what's involved in just bolting this engine into the bay with an VR 02A box. Is there any custom fabrication involved etc. If I can get my head around that and around the removal of the DBW and setting up the engine on DTA then I can concentrate on the FI. I'll be just honing the bores and fitting forged rods and pistons. The head will remain stock as will the pulley system the variable inlet will be removed and a short runner replacement sourced.

Bit in the dark about coilovers or wasted spark, I guess a beefy wasted spark system would be better than the coilover setup.

So I intend to simplify the engines operation before turbo charging. I'll use sequential injection and have it over to Wayne for final setup of fuel and ignition and hopefully with his experience with rally cars he'll be able to setup launch control for me.

Had a look at herisites and was shocked to see that the entire engine sits in front of the centre of the wheels, never realised the angle that VR's sit at. Gives plenty of space for the important addition!

So much to talk about and think about I don't where to start. Which is just what i want.

ctwg60 wrote:this ultimately led to the conclusion that it would be better to start with an R32 engine there seem to be plenty about and for around £1200 it would be worth the extra money. What I am a bit in the dark about is what's involved in just bolting this engine into the bay with an VR 02A box. Is there any custom fabrication involved etc.

Nah bolts straight on. So is this still going to be FWD and max power ?

Personally I don't rate the R32 as a turbo engine. I keep hearing of chain failures and the block is not as strong as the 2.8's. I've even heard of a few high boost R32 guys having to girdle the block to stop it flexing. Also bear in mind the R32 has thinner headbolts than the 2.8 and IIRC, thinner valve steams.

The 2.8 24V is a tank and can make big numbers all day long. That's why I got a 2.8 over an R32. You can add an R32 head to the 2.8 and you'll have the flow AND the strength. You can even use an R32 crank with stock (modified) pistons (81mm) and get a nice 3 litre lump.

I'm not trying to sway you either way, but just trying to make you aware of the options

You're gonna need a gearset for the O2A either way!

ctwg60 wrote:If I can get my head around that and around the removal of the DBW and setting up the engine on DTA then I can concentrate on the FI. I'll be just honing the bores and fitting forged rods and pistons. The head will remain stock as will the pulley system the variable inlet will be removed and a short runner replacement sourced.

No need to remove the DBW. DTA are working on a DBW controller. In fact, they've had a guinea pig out in the field for quite some time now. It's on Bill Brockbank's (Badger5) 500 horse Seat Ibiza 1.8T and according to Bill (he's on the DTA forum) it works brilliantly. I spoke to Allan at DTA last month and they're working on the packaging side still, but technically it works. Shouldn't be much longer now.

The short runner needs some investigation. Getting one to fit in the Corrado without hacking the radiator and slam panel arrangements is tricky.

ctwg60 wrote:Bit in the dark about coilovers or wasted spark, I guess a beefy wasted spark system would be better than the coilover setup.

Stick to a coilpack. Coilovers are notoriously crap and they have a weaker spark than a coilpack anyway. With the plug being right in the centre of the squish area, the air/fuel is easier to ignite, so they don't need such a big spark these days, which is just aswell as the tiny coils in COPs can't dish out a big spark anyway
If you're gunning for big boost, 6 of these will see you right - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

ctwg60 wrote:So I intend to simplify the engines operation before turbo charging. I'll use sequential injection and have it over to Wayne for final setup of fuel and ignition and hopefully with his experience with rally cars he'll be able to setup launch control for me.

Sequential could be fun with variable cam timing. The 24V has a weird cam sensor aswell, which I'm not sure DTA support - yet. If this is going to be a big hp engine, just go with batch

ctwg60 wrote:Had a look at herisites and was shocked to see that the entire engine sits in front of the centre of the wheels, never realised the angle that VR's sit at. Gives plenty of space for the important addition!

Yeah it has to cant forward to get it under the bonnet

We could end up doing our 24V T's alongside eachother as mine's going to be a slow project also

Yes I read over on vortex about the R32 being swapable with the vr24v flow seems impressive. i think someone at the RR day said Crazy dave was doing a manifold for MicVR.

How does the varible cam timing work is it a mechanical system or does the ECU control it. Like the idea of using R32 bits in a 2.8 but I don't want to get bogged down in a custom bottom-end. Something to think about though. Hmmm.

I'm glad you've revealed some of the flaws of the R32 better to know up front. Now I have to do some research.

Could the cam sensor be binned in favour of a diy pickup system on the cam pulley!

So is it the R32 engine mounts that produce that angle or are all VR's like that.

Great info Kev i knew you were the man to ask for input as i bet you've done all the research.

I really need to brush up my knowledge on ignition systems, currently my mind just shrugs when I ask it to think about coils and such thanks for the link btw.

When you say "sequential could be fun with variable cam timing" do you mean fun as in fail!

Would be great if i can keep the DBW.

Initially yes, I'm going to have a go with just FWD and maximum power

Found this when I was diging around.

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ctwg60 wrote:Yes I read over on vortex about the R32 being swapable with the vr24v flow seems impressive. i think someone at the RR day said Crazy dave was doing a manifold for MicVR.

He sure is! Saying that, it will be for a standard 24v head, rather than an R32 head, if you were to go down that route. I don't know if both heads are the same dimensions, specifically the intake port layout and position relative to each other.

OK yes they are sorry!

ctwg60 wrote:Yes I read over on vortex about the R32 being swapable with the vr24v flow seems impressive. i think someone at the RR day said Crazy dave was doing a manifold for MicVR.

Yeah you can buy ready CNC'd 24v flange and O ring kits from the US. All you would need to do is sling on your own plenum. I say "all you need to do...." but there's more to it than that obviously Runner length needs careful consideration and being able to weld ally helps too!

ctwg60 wrote:How does the varible cam timing work is it a mechanical system or does the ECU control it. Like the idea of using R32 bits in a 2.8 but I don't want to get bogged down in a custom bottom-end. Something to think about though. Hmmm

Electo-Hydraulic actuators controlled by the ECU. On the early 2.8 24V, only the inlet cam can advance 10 deg (IIRC). It's just a simple on = +10 deg / off = zero deg affair

Later 2.8s can advance and retard both inlet and exhaust cams, and is variable from 1 to what ever degrees. Ditto the R32.

Moving the exhaust cam has no benefit I'm aware of, other than creating more overlap to pull air through the cyls to dilute over rich exhaust gases during warm up, which along with the EGR air pump, reduces cat damage.
Shifting the inlet cam is where the power/torque comes from and can fatten up the midrange quite nicely. This is why - again - the 2.8 is pick of the crop because it's simpler and only has the cam adjustment you need. We don't give a schitt about emissions, so exhaust cam phasing just isn't relevant to our applications

ctwg60 wrote:Could the cam sensor be binned in favour of a diy pickup system on the cam pulley!

Schimmel's done a few 24V T's with DTA, so I'll ask him what he does in respect of sequential hall sensor triggering.

ctwg60 wrote:So is it the R32 engine mounts that produce that angle or are all VR's like that.

All VRs are like that!

ctwg60 wrote:Great info Kev i knew you were the man to ask for input as i bet you've done all the research.

No worries, glad to help! I'm still trying to get my head round it all though!

ctwg60 wrote:I really need to brush up my knowledge on ignition systems, currently my mind just shrugs when I ask it to think about coils and such thanks for the link btw.

You'll be surprised what you will learn running a standalone mate!

ctwg60 wrote:When you say "sequential could be fun with variable cam timing" do you mean fun as in fail!

Nah, fun as in may not work at all
I've not looked into 24V sequential in much detail yet, but I'm confident it will work!

ctwg60 wrote:Would be great if i can keep the DBW

Absolutely. It will make your launch control a lot easier and more stable for starters. Plus other benefits like cruise control and superior idling will be there too!

Initially yes, I'm going to have a go with just FWD and maximum power

ctwg60 wrote:Found this when I was diging around.

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HPA make some nice stuff. Their short runner looks great - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

What concerns me about short runners and the 24V is off boost torque.

If you consider how gutless the 12V is below 4000rpm, that will be worse with a 24V. it's the age old 8V v 16V problem again. That's why VW needed the trick intake and variable inlet timing to boost the torque.
HPA have already admitted you lose torque with their CVP, but you can "get it back again" with their other mods (funny that).

Shame the plastic intake can't take any more than 8psi (reliably) as that would be the way to go imo.

So what engine code have you bought? I take it it's an early one with the on/off vvt?