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2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by Toad on Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:07 am

Do you think it would be worth trying the piper cam?
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:32 am

ctwg60 wrote:Hmmm I got about £60 off by paying cash I could go to awesome and pay £70 but it's bloody annoying plus CW use 5th for there runs and awesome use 4th so.....

A higher gear will always give a higher flywheel bhp and a lower wheel bhp than a lower gear would! I have a diesel gearbox so.......

Thats intersting - I'm sure Surrey Rolling Road where I go use 3rd for their runs. I had no idea the gear used affected it. Has your final drive changed then CTW, and if so does that have an effect on the power calculation?
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:09 am

Toad wrote:Do you think it would be worth trying the piper cam?

Well it would be interesting but then there's the price of the cam then a remap using the same guy! Suspect And then back to awesome to get another comparative run in 4th etc. I'm pretty poor now so .... plus I really do need to give the bodywork some attention before the car becomes unsightly so at the moment I'm not too keen to keep throwing money at it. Plus I need to insure it next month and then tax it in Feb! Rolling Eyes

On a better note I picked up a good replacement drivers side wing today for £5.50. Laughing

I might try the stock cam for a laugh, just out of interest really, to see what it does to the manifold boost pressure. I honestly think the schrick cam has too much overlap and allows boost out of the exhaust but everyone uses them with "good" result although usually in a ported head!

Here's a good source of info for coastdown losses....

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:57 am

Thanks for the info on the coast down losses - the changes are huge Shocked . Actually the stock cam might not be a bad idea gien your stock head. I'm interested to know how much he charged you in the end CTW, as obviously I was thinking of going there as well. Can you please drop me a pm and let me know.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:45 pm

mrbeige wrote:That's massively poop. Do you think that the engine may just be consuming all the charge that the G can provide? I mean, you are running 200cc more than the G was designed to force feed, so you may just have reached the maximum for a standard charger?


I don't think that is what we are witnessing here.
There are examples out there of g-larders feeding 2.0 litre engines to good effect.
And its not like the engine is consuming all the boost anyway.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:41 pm

dirtytorque wrote:
mrbeige wrote:That's massively poop. Do you think that the engine may just be consuming all the charge that the G can provide? I mean, you are running 200cc more than the G was designed to force feed, so you may just have reached the maximum for a standard charger?


I don't think that is what we are witnessing here.
There are examples out there of g-larders feeding 2.0 litre engines to good effect.
And its not like the engine is consuming all the boost anyway.

No I think what we are witnessing is the curse of the 2ltr 8v G60, it involves incredible costs and suffering. Hence the reason it's not commercially (wrong word) available.

At least I can only blame myself for the rather unsatisfactory numbers as the entire engine is my own creation. The map isn't but I have to trust the guy knows his stuff as you won't find a bad word said about his skills from anyone in the business or any customer of his to my knowledge.

Maybe I have found the limit of the G60 stock head on the exhaust side of things even though I have fitted a schrick cam and Gwerks exhaust. Is the limit 210lb-ft at the wheels and 200bhp? Rub What does this smilie mean? I'm gay? Your bald? Basketball What!!

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by Toad on Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:52 pm

ctwg60 wrote: Rub What does this smilie mean? I'm gay? Your bald? Basketball What!!

Hahahahaha. I don't know, but I like it... Shocked I think this one means, welcome to epileptic fit land.

I wonder if you are correct though, maybe it is the limit of the head?

Out of interest, does the difference between longer stroke and smaller bore, and shorter stroke and larger bore make a difference?

I suppose (in your case for example) it's just 502cc of air that has to be ingested in each stroke.... hmmm. Sorry for turning into a ramble, I've started a thread on the maths involved behind what I'm trying to suggest Here
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:10 am

Well Chirs if you are happy that the car is mapped well then It has to be a breathing issue.
I think you have maybe bumped up against the limit of the head.
Again would reallf of liked to see a plot to see how your torque started to come in and then if it tapered off etc.


I'm sorry i know I'm boring you with this now but what mapper can't give you a flucking plot???

I'm going to send him hate mail.

thanks for sharing this all with us btw.
I know there is a massive emotional investment in this engine.
Hats off to you.

Maybe we will all be fitting turbos in 2009.

Only kiddin. Cool

It will be at least 2010 b4 I go turbo. Very Happy
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:09 am

dirtytorque wrote:Well Chirs if you are happy that the car is mapped well then It has to be a breathing issue.

I'm sorry i know I'm boring you with this now but what mapper can't give you a flucking plot???

I'm going to send him hate mail.

To be honest I wouldn't have a clue if the map was good or not but at some point you have to trust people know what they're doing. Ok it's a shabby show when blah blah blah......... but it's too easy to criticise and too many people use him for maping. Darren (G-Werks) uses him for his own cars, Ian Birch (Original DubSport Owner) sends all his customer cars there for mapping, many racing teams use him in fact he rolled out a race prepared porsche 911 (£200,000) before putting my car on the RR, so...........

dirtytorque wrote:I think you have maybe bumped up against the limit of the head.
Again would reallf of liked to see a plot to see how your torque started to come in and then if it tapered off etc.

thanks for sharing this all with us btw.
I know there is a massive emotional investment in this engine.
Hats off to you.

It wouldn't be any fun if it was was easy, and everyone would be doing it! If all I have proved is that with a stock G60 and head, the head restricts flow above 200whp and 210wt then at least I now know that head porting is necessary to improve things.

Let's see what the Awesome RR says about torque and AFR and then I'll have a better idea of comparative improvements.

Thanks for the "Hats Off"!Smile I'll get there one day, but will I care I've got there when I get there! scratch

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:00 am

Booked in at Awesome for 1.30pm on Friday! Cool

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:12 am

ctwg60 wrote:Booked in at Awesome for 1.30pm on Friday! Cool

Cool

has to be done.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by mrbeige on Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:21 am

You just gonna stick it on the rollers to get a plot or two then? What does your 'Butt' dyno tell you now that you've run it in?

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:35 am

mrbeige wrote:You just gonna stick it on the rollers to get a plot or two then? What does your 'Butt' dyno tell you now that you've run it in?

Yep three runs and an AFR plot, my butt tells me there is more peak torque, but not massive amounts, I'm not breaking wheel traction in 2nd under FT acceleration but there is definitely more torque available lower in the rev range and above 4k, so the torque curve has definitely been broadened which is good. I'm driving it to work everyday this week to give me a chance to evaluate the new engine. I think that maybe the shadow of no torque curve and the low peak whp has clouded the engines performance and maybe I was expecting a larger difference in peak torque. You can't really feel 10lbft, well I can't anyway, but then again wet road traction has been reduced as I found out this morning on a very mildly damp road. affraid Ooops!

I know I've said this before but the engine is so smooth and oem feeling, it was -3 this morning and it fired up on the first crank and idled perfectly while I waited for the windscreen to clear.

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:11 am

Ok finally have a graph plot for the new engine that is directly comparable to a previous run on the same rollers. Pains me to say it but it looks like a ported head is absolutely essential to getting the best from a 2ltr bottom end. Based on the 2nd run on both plots I've gained 30lbft at 1000rpm, 20lbft at 2000, around 15lbft at 3000, 15lbft at peak torque, 10lbft at 5000 and 20lbft at 6000rpm as there is no longer the severe drop in power at the end of the graph.

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I was hoping for 20lbft across the entire rev range and so have fallen short of that target, I guess I better start whoring myself and my possessions again to get some money together to get myself a ported head, injectors and remap! Laughing

Notice the way the bottom flywheel power graph almost flatlines at 4500rpm and then just manages to creep over 200bhp! Head restriction? Shocked

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:47 am

A good curve.
This is maybe one of the most instructive threads on a g60 that I have ever seen.No bullshite.It is an exageration of the g60 engines strengths and weaknesses.
The project draws a good parallel with JMC's project too.
I think in a way you have got what you wanted.In fact you have maybe been too sucessful.Look at the area of new torque above 200 ft lbs.You have achieved a flexible engine with a fat & flat torque band.I think this has been at the expense of peak torque,hp.I

However b4 you do anything else I'd think about what exactly your wanting that your current setup isn't given you from a driving experience perspective.
Because to me it seems like you have got exactly what you wanted.
It will be great if you do explore breathing mods from a technical discussion point of view seeing as you wil have plots at each stage of modification.
I started typing this in a pm but i though fluck it,lets discuss it in the open
Smile

gtech is on route btw. Wink
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:58 am

Well I guess if you read the first post on this thread your right. The engine is in fine health, touch wood and I think I will be using it daily so plan to get my money's worth before doing any more to it. I want to get to santa pod in the spring/summer and get it down the track with the current box. I think for the QM the current box will be good it's on the verge of breaking traction in 2nd in the dry but just isn't able to. If it's even slightly damp it does spin it's wheels so I should be able to improve my 1/8 mile in the dry at least. The top end is improved also so 3rd should do better.

October next year will probably be new head time and remap.

170lbft at the wheels from 2000rpm to 6000rpm will do for now. Smile

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by junkie on Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:34 pm

Your torque curve looks the same shape as mine.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:57 am

ctwg60 wrote:170lbft at the wheels from 2000rpm to 6000rpm will do for now. Smile

Personally I'd be very happy with that - thats way more than mine Shocked
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:56 am

jmc wrote:
ctwg60 wrote:170lbft at the wheels from 2000rpm to 6000rpm will do for now. Smile

Personally I'd be very happy with that - thats way more than mine Shocked

You'll get yours sorted I'm sure! Good work

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by mrbeige on Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:53 am

ctwg60 wrote:October next year will probably be new head time and remap.

170lbft at the wheels from 2000rpm to 6000rpm will do for now. Smile
Not sure if I've asked this before, but have you considered a cross-flow 8v head? I realise that it is a bit of a job, plumbing wise, but am I right in thinking that they breath a hell of a lot better than a standard counter-flow head?

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:19 am

ctwg60 wrote:You'll get yours sorted I'm sure! Good work

Cheers mate. I've booked into Stealth in early Jan to let Vince map it. Bit nearer for me than Lancashire, and I'm fairly sure it's 90% of the way there already. I just the icing on the cake as it were.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:35 am

mrbeige wrote:
ctwg60 wrote:October next year will probably be new head time and remap.

170lbft at the wheels from 2000rpm to 6000rpm will do for now. Smile
Not sure if I've asked this before, but have you considered a cross-flow 8v head? I realise that it is a bit of a job, plumbing wise, but am I right in thinking that they breath a hell of a lot better than a standard counter-flow head?

Certainly an option for me, just a pain to relocate the alternator without losing the golf FMIC and plumbing. Plus it would be too tempting to start thinking about running a turbo with a cross flow head. Laughing In which case I'd probably use one of the pg blocks I have with forged everything and ARP everything and a 16v head etc Ahhhhhhh Mr Beige leave me alone!! Crying or Very sad Help

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by junkie on Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:11 am

Do the 16v heads fit the PG then?

I think the cross flow breathes better but its not a massive difference.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:08 pm

is that the standard audi block breather?
I can't remember what was on the engine when i took it out.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:07 pm

Yes it is. Did the naughty scrap man nick yours? Very Happy

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

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