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2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:52 am

Well my engine is in and done 350 miles now and I chanced a run in third gear with the MFA boost gauge and only managed 1760hg which is about 11psi I think, previously I was getting 2000hg from about 4k - 6k which is about 14.5 psi I believe. So it's managing to swallow an extra 3.5 psi. Very Happy

Trying to get Friday 21st instead of the 28th, I can't wait that long!

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by Flusted on Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:13 am

so wot does it "feel" like
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:22 am

Flusted wrote:so wot does it "feel" like

It feels like it's badly under fueled. I think it's giving me about the same power as the old engine but it just pinking all the time with any sort of throttle opening but then it would be; as it's returning 350 miles to a tank on country lanes and a bit of motorway. I haven't exactly been driving it economically. Rolling Eyes

But as far as road manners and the engine as a means of transport it's fine doesn't feel like it's anymore or less refined than the old engine. So if I can get a good wedge of torque out of it throughout the rev range, I'll be very happy with my 20 month project.

I just want an excuse to fit the new box, and lack of FT traction on a dry road in 2nd is more than enough of an excuse. Going to do some QMT with Rob's GTech first then change the box and see if I can improve on my times. Cheers Rob! Wink

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Mon Nov 10, 2008 10:50 am

No probs,but I am not liable if your engine blows up through use of the g-tech. Wink
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:09 pm

Just spent time and read through all this - great piece of work CTW Very Happy

What make EGT is that - looks like a really compact simple little display unit?

What you were saying about the Schrick sump has now got me wondering - what were the probs you were getting with it (I have one on my G60, and am now wondering what i should be looking out for)?
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:46 am

Tks JMC. EGT is from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

With regards to the sump it's the fitting that is the problem so if it was fitted at G-Werks then you have no problem. Basically you need the correct length bolts of the right spec and to modify the bottom plate for the gearbox oh also had fun fitting the plate once modified. Basically a load of hassle you just don't need when you've got lots of other more important things to worry about.

Just pray you never have to remove your sump and it will be fine. Access to the sump bolts at the flywheel end is very tight aswell and to make matters worse it's very easy to pull the threads in the alu end plates aswell, which I also suffered. Just not worth the hassle in my opinion. Rolling Eyes


Last edited by ctwg60 on Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:45 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:04 am

Thanks CTW. I like the EGT gauge - very neat and compact Very Happy

Also good to know about the watchouts for the sump. I had it fitted at G-Werks and so far (touch wood) it hasn't had to be removed. From the sounds of it I hope I don't need to Sad
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:44 am

Just been reading about EGT temps and what is safe! Maybe I should of done this before I drove 400 miles? Apparently anything over 720˚C can lead to premature engine failure, not instant failure but the engine won't live as long! 4ck me I can easily see over 800˚C once saw just over 900+. :ignore: :eek:

What do you think! Is this just scare mongering by people who want to sell you a gauge or what? Those poor NAsp pistons in there must be thinking, is this guy having a laugh! WTF

Also non of them are specify were the temps are measured. I mean are they talking 2 feet 11" or 4" like myself?? Or is it actual combustion temperature they are talking about?

EDIT:

Ahhh!
You can also fit it after the turbo, where you don't have any chance of the sensor breaking and damaging the turbo. But, the temperature it reads here is much lower (around 200 degrees). And the temperature difference before and after the turbo varies with rpm, boost, and turbo exhaust housing A/R. So you cannot accurately say that a reading of 700deg corresponds to a reading of 900deg pre-turbo. With the sensor in this position you can also see the temperature of the turbo, so when you idle the car you can see the temp drop, telling you when it is safe to shut the car down.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Oh thank god the answer I was looking for.....

That's it! Your probe is now fitted. If you wired up your sensor correctly, you should have a good reading now. Most resources suggest that 925deg is the absolute limit you ever want to see, since that is the temp that aluminium pistons start melting at. So I set my alarm at 900deg. The highest reading I have seen, flatfooting it down the backstraight of Killarney at over 200, is 885.

The limits of the reading will vary from car to car, depending on the compression ratio of the engine, cam design, and sensor location. So if your car has been well tuned, or is running well, take a note of the reading when flatfooting it, and set your alarm level about 20deg above that.

Feel free to ask any questions that you may have regarding this post.

feel better now. pale

Edit:

Some more reading
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:35 pm

Thats an interesting thread on the tex. How come you've mounted it so close and at the top of one of the runners CTW? I would have thought that would only have highlighted a problem with that one cylinder, and that it should be down where the pipes join...
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:47 pm

For it to get a reading from all the cylinders it would have to be down by the lambda probe and that's about 2.5 feet from the head so it would be pointless. The idea was to mount it close to the head were it could give me accurate reading from a cylinder that was likely to be the hottest running and therefore the worst case, I was more concerned about the map being way out or too higher a CR for the engine to run within safe limits rather than an individual injector running a particular cylinder lean. So that's why it's up there on cylinder 1. Smile

Cylinder 1 gets the most air flow internally and run's the leanest it also has the least cooling due to the water ways around the cylinder hence the hole in the side of the PG block with the plate over it to give more coolant flow.

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Sat Nov 15, 2008 1:01 pm

Right, that makes perfect sense then CTW - nice to learn something new every day Laughing
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by mrbeige on Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:42 am

So when is the mappage taking place and who is doing it?

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:09 am

This Friday at chipwzards. New Bosch coil and W5DP0 plugs fitted. 500+ miles now done filter and oil changed from millers running in oil to castrol GTX Mineral.

It's been bloody torture waiting this long. My minds come up with so many variables I might also want to consider and possible problems. Neutral

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by mrbeige on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:17 am

Cool. Isn't Chipwizards ooop north somewhere (north of Manchester?), where are you based ct

Once it's mapped, what's next?

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:30 am

I'm Lancashire north of Liverpool. About 40 miles away from chipwizards which in Rochdale. Once it's mapped it will be a lot of driving and reassessment of traction which will hopefully be compromised in 1st and 2nd by the new engine. Can't decide whether to do some 1/4 miles at Santa Pod in the spring with the existing box regardless of traction issues or fit the new one in early spring and use that straight off. I am borrowing a gtech from Rob before then but finding a place to accelerate from 0-95mph safely and without being arrested is hard and a risk I would rather avoid but.......

Best previous Pod QMT was 15.12 best unofficial (gtech time) 14.7 and best 0-60 was 5.98 secs

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:42 am

ctwg60 wrote:I'm Lancashire north of Liverpool. About 40 miles away from chipwizards which in Rochdale. Once it's mapped it will be a lot of driving and reassessment of traction which will hopefully be compromised in 1st and 2nd by the new engine. Can't decide whether to do some 1/4 miles at Santa Pod in the spring with the existing box regardless of traction issues or fit the new one in early spring and use that straight off. I am borrowing a gtech from Rob before then but finding a place to accelerate from 0-95mph safely and without being arrested is hard and a risk I would rather avoid but.......

Best previous Pod QMT was 15.12 best unofficial (gtech time) 14.7 and best 0-60 was 5.98 secs

I am sure you will find a suiatble private road.
Smile

Its nice to have a 1/4 mile time but if you just do 1/8th's then you can guage what your ET would have been anyway.

Getting to 1/4 at FT is err.. unpractical unless you are on a private road. Evil or Very Mad
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:47 am

dirtytorque wrote:
Getting to 1/4 at FT is err.. unpractical unless you are on a private road. Evil or Very Mad

Yes, and you would know all about that wouldn't you Robert! Laughing

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Nov 25, 2008 7:35 am

1/4 miles on private roads you mean?
Yes,yes I would. Wink
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Nov 28, 2008 2:56 pm

OK I went up to chipwizards and got on the rolling road all went fine but the guy's rpm pickup was out of action so the measured brake horse power could not be calculated into a torque curve. Pretty pissed off about that but we manually calculated at the flywheel the following numbers.

Max bhp at the flywheel 229bhp (this was given on the graph estimated at 5500)
Max torque at the flywheel 237lb-ft at around 4000
Wheel torque came out at 210lb-ft (which I think is poo)
Wheel power came out at 194bhp (which I think is really poo)

Guess I need to evaluate what's going on here. Car feels marginally quicker and definitely has more going on above 4000rpm but I'm a little disappointed with the wheels figures because they are basically the same as the awesome numbers give or take.

Worked out that I have 181lb-ft at around 2k compared to 160lb-ft of the previous engine. (flywheel)

Not very pleased really with the guessing game of estimating engine rpm from roller mph. Bang head (we need better angry and confused smilies!)

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by jmc on Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:38 pm

Hmm, sorry to hear that mate. Thats ridiculous about the rpm pickup - hope they gave you a discount for that, as you're missing out on some vital information on how it's performing because of it. Are you nearby to any other rolling road - I am sure they are all somewhat different, and it may be useful to check the values at another one?
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Nov 28, 2008 3:45 pm

I don't think they should be taking money from people if they don't have all the necessary gear to hand.

Oh well.Onwards and upwards.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:11 pm

Hmmm I got about £60 off by paying cash I could go to awesome and pay £70 but it's bloody annoying plus CW use 5th for there runs and awesome use 4th so.....

A higher gear will always give a higher flywheel bhp and a lower wheel bhp than a lower gear would! I have a diesel gearbox so.......

Didn't find out about the rpm pickup till the very end! I don't know I spend 18 months trying to engineer a torquey engine and then end up at a RR with no rpm pickup!! Crying or Very sad

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by Toad on Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:26 pm

That's a massive anti-climax Sad

Sorry dude.
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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by mrbeige on Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:32 am

That's massively poop. Do you think that the engine may just be consuming all the charge that the G can provide? I mean, you are running 200cc more than the G was designed to force feed, so you may just have reached the maximum for a standard charger?




(P.S. I'll expand the angry/annoyed smilies Wink )

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:47 am

Not trying to make myself feel better saying this but the engine has only done 600 miles but the pessimist in me is thinking, I won't see a lot more torque in 10,000 miles. My gut is telling me that the schrick cam in the stock head with the longer crank and shorter rods is working against all the improvements I have made in capacity and compression. So the choices are either a standard cam, can't see that working with the longer crank and greater capacity, or longer duration cam or a cam with less overlap. study

As discussed with JMC I looked at the specs closely (for an amateur) between his piper and the schrick and the overlap at TDC was quite large in comparison.

I'll get it up to awesome before Christmas and get a proper printout which will be comparable to the previous printout!

Need confused smilies aswell, :CF headscratch: and :CF confused:, I use alot! Very Happy

edit: I like :CF shrug: aswell! pig why?

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Re: 2008cc 8.75:1 CR 3A G60 build.

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