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Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

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Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:35 am

Ok, so we've talked a little about twin turbo setups, now, I think we need to discuss supercharger and turbo setups! The reason I ask, is because a few people have said that twin turboing a 16v wont give me what I want, and that's plenty of torque low down, and I still fancy a challenge Laughing

So, for example, take a 2.0l 16v engine, strap an Eaton M62 and say a GT28 to it. how would you go about routing the charge? Into the Eaton first then on to the Turbo would be the most logical, but once the turbo spools up, will the super be able to deliver enough air, or will it start to choke the turbo? What I mean is, would you want to bypass the Eaton once you've spooled?


Last edited by mrbeige on Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by junkie on Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:00 am

Personally with a GT28 you dont wanna be putting a supercharger on.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:54 am

Well, I say GT28, maybe that was a bad example. Maybe something bigger, that takes a while to spool??

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by boost panda on Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:53 pm

I would look into having a clutched pulley on the supercharger if I was you, so that it disengages at a certain rpm or boost level. Hell, you could probs design a controller for it Stu!

IIRC, the TSi engine superchargers have a magnetic pulley that disengages so the pistons don't melt. Or something.

That's how I would look into it.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:02 pm

I was/am reasearching this looking at the ol lancia Intagrale as my inspiration.
There's an awful lot of room behing a 16v head. Smile
I'll try and dig out the vortex thread that I found on it.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Jun 18, 2009 8:09 am

Your all nutters!







And I like it! Laughing

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mic_VR on Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:56 am

ctwg60 wrote:Your all nutters!



And I like it! Laughing

Haha couldn't have said it better myself. Why not 4 turbos, one per cylinder?
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:47 am

mic_VR wrote:Why not 4 turbos, one per cylinder?
Well, that's a ridiculous idea........I wonder if it would work? I guess it would....

Seriously though, the clutching of the Supercharger might be an idea. Could you have a secondary throttle that would only open once the turbo had spooled, to bypass the supercharger, and then open the clutch, so it doesn't sap any power? I remember reading a while back about that Lancia, but can't remember how they configured it.

Anyone know how the TFSI engine is configured?

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by boost panda on Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:10 am

4 turbos would require an insane exhaust gas flow rate! You'd eiother need turbos the size of a child's hand, else they would never spool.

sounds perfectly possibly Stu. Also, TFSI info is freely available, do a little searchage.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:06 am

I'll hit google later on Smile

I agree, you'd need massively small turbos (nice turn of phrase Stu Smile )

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:19 am

Hmm an engineering plaything or a serious tool?
Pretty cool either way.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:56 am

So lets talk basics first.
Eaton.
How easy/hard are they to mount to our engines?
Smile
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:39 am

First point I'd say is do it to a left hand drive car, for the space and plumbing! There's a thread on vortex about eatons and dual charging. The only one on the top twenty page has woeful power and torque though. Obviously not done well.

I've thought about this myself as you do! And I figured the best way to get a reliable system would be to take a written off 1.4 twin charged modern VW vehicle and adapt the system to the 2.0TFSI engine and then increase the size of the turbo or SC or both. Expensive and would require farication no doubt but I bet you could use it every day and go very fast!

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by junkie on Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:45 pm

Can you remember the belgian 16vtwin60
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by junkie on Fri Jun 19, 2009 1:50 pm

This might be the wrong video. I cant get youtube to work, it says i need to install the latest player so i click the link go through the motions and it says installed successful, go back to youtube and says i need to install the latest player again over and over again no matter how many times i install it.

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Then there was the triple turbo VR6 in America with the engine in the back of a Caddy if you remember that one.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:18 pm

Yup that is definitely a twin g60. Christ, it revs well!

You see, I'm not completely nuts about DIY twin charging!

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:58 pm

i think a twin(turbo+charger) would have a diff feel.
That does sound strong tho.
But imagine just as the charger is finished providing it's laughs a fresh wave of turbo torque pinging you towards the horizon.

..
oh my. Smile
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:27 pm

You see, I'm not completely mental.....

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by junkie on Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:46 pm

Any ideas how to get youtube working so i can see the vid.

I read about the twinG60 in PVW a couple of years ago, it gave 2 bar which remember that will provide enough boost for most and zero lag, no need to have the turbo too. Easier to plumb just connect both charger outlets to the same boost pipe to intercooler, Rob is the master in getting the belt set up right.

Super and turbo really is way too much work, honestly.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:40 pm

junkie wrote:Any ideas how to get youtube working so i can see the vid.

I read about the twinG60 in PVW a couple of years ago, it gave 2 bar which remember that will provide enough boost for most and zero lag, no need to have the turbo too. Easier to plumb just connect both charger outlets to the same boost pipe to intercooler, Rob is the master in getting the belt set up right.

Super and turbo really is way too much work, honestly.

yeah but I like an impractical challenge.
I rekon they would both require some fabrication tbh.
I'm keeping an open mind to it all anyway
I wouldn't use a clutch system.Would keep it simple.
I would just feed the turbo into the charger.
Intercooling would be an issue and I guess mapping like any engine install would make or break it.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:08 am

So you'd go turbo into supercharger, rather than the other way round? I suppose that trying to push air through a turbo would cause extra strain on the turbine blades and shaft??

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by dirtytorque on Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:54 am

Yeah I definately wouldn't force feed a turbo from a charger tbh.I would of thought it would be better the other way around.The charger should be up and running by the time a moderate sized turbo was coming on boost.

Or rather than a clucth system,just have the charger free wheel once the turbo starts producing x amount of boost by diverting boost straight into the TB via your charge cooling and away from the input of the charger.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by mrbeige on Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:38 am

Here is a bit more on that lithuanian twin charged Corrado

You can't really tell from the text or the pictures how he's run the boost, although, it dos look like turbo first. I wonder if it bypasses the supercharger above a certain threshold?

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by pete_griff on Sun Jun 21, 2009 8:21 am

i read an article a while ago in an american vw/bmw tuning magazine (while i was in kandahar - hopefully you can let me off!)

there was a twin-charged e46 328 in there.
iirc they got round that by having the supercharger on a clutched pulley (or something similar - basically it disengaged over about 3-3.5k rpm), then the turbo took over.
also they had separate intakes for each blower, before they went into a common intake to the throttle body (there were some 1-way valves involved i think)
i thin that's how they did it anyway - google it and you might find some more stuff out

keep us posted - love original stuff like this Very Happy

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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Post by Toad on Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:10 pm

Yeah, I'd have thought one plenum with two inlets, or two inlets into the intercooler would have been the way forward, having butterflies in each pipe would be the wayforward too with the supercharger clutched, reason being, at low RPM, the turbo experiencing back pressure from the supercharger could cause it to stall, and at high RPM, the supercharger experiencing back pressure would put a lot of strain on it, and the drive belt.
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

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