Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
+5
ctwg60
dirtytorque
boost panda
junkie
mrbeige
9 posters
OddUnit :: The Workshop :: Engine
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Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
mrbeige wrote:So, for example, take a 2.0l 16v engine, strap an Eaton M62 and say a GT28 to it. how would you go about routing the charge? Into the Eaton first then on to the Turbo would be the most logical, but once the turbo spools up, will the super be able to deliver enough air, or will it start to choke the turbo? What I mean is, would you want to bypass the Eaton once you've spooled?
Turbo compressors are very delicate, so if if you do it that way I reckon you'll end up bending them? Directing the S/C's boost over the turbine wheel might work though and I'm sure it could be done using existing EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirc) technology? Would need a redesigned turbine housing though, or a dedicated port on the manifold very close to the turbine wheel and it would have to be post lambda too.....hmmmm, tricky!
The way JD Engineering did their's makes sense in theory.
Take a 20VT engine with a turbo and a G60. The turbo's compressor output feeds the G60's inlet and the combined boost is then intercooled before entering the intake.
When the turbo is out of it's boost zone, the G60 helps turbo spool by effectively pulling air through the compressor. When the turbo comes on boost, the G60 is compressing the already compressed air still further, so in theory it's an easy thing to do. In practice Mr Dik used 3 ECUs!! A G60 Ecu, 20VT ECU plus another one, can't remember what that one was for. Bonkers!
I'm sure it could be done a little easier than that, but his way works very well by all accounts.
3 things concern me with that method though:-
1) Intake charge temp. 70-80 deg C (depending on boost) out of the turbo into G60 Plus the G60's own heat = very hot indeed. You would need a very good intercooler that's top of league division 1, plus some supplementary cooling I would imagine, such as meth injection or petrol spray onto the G60's scroll.
2) Turbo lifespan. Turbos are designed to produce boost relative to exhaust pressure and volume, so I'm not sure how well it would take to being forced to make boost outside of it's comfort zone by being 'sucked on' by an S/C. I'm also not sure how much of a restriction shoving boost into a supercharger would present to the turbo. Boost surging is a bad enough problem as it is, without shoving an S/C into the mix to complicate matters It would work though, but for how long is anyone's guess. Careful matching of turbo and S/C flow rates is essential tho.
3) If the turbo throws a blade or if the turbo sucks in something harder than ally, you'll lose both the turbo AND the S/C, but I doubt anyone mad enough to build a Superbocharged engine would worry about that!
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Well if used a great big feck off GT30Which im sure is way oversized compared to the grenade. He also used the 3 throttle bodies did he not.
junkie- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 376
Age : 43
Location : Rotherham
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Dunno, didn't read the whole article but additional throttles would indeed be needed to avoid excess boost and noise at low rpms.
The GT30 is far from feck off big, it's actually a tiddler relatively speaking
The GT30 is far from feck off big, it's actually a tiddler relatively speaking
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Frame size wise its the same as your small 35 is it not. Relatively speaking its huge with relation to airflow compared to the grenade as you said flow rates would need to be matched, well put 2 grenades on then. Suppose he can put strain on his stuff though as he owns 1 of the best tuning outfits in europe.
junkie- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 376
Age : 43
Location : Rotherham
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Surely you'd be better having two separate feeds into the intake, rather than compond charging it? As Kev says, you wouldn't want to take out both chargers in the event of a failure.
So if you were to have two separate feeds into one inlet, how would you go about switching between the two, or could you use some sort of one-way valve?
So if you were to have two separate feeds into one inlet, how would you go about switching between the two, or could you use some sort of one-way valve?
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
junkie wrote:Frame size wise its the same as your small 35 is it not.
Same CHRA size but very different wheel sizes and Compressor AR.
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
interesting link of a toyota supercharger clutch system
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dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Well, after discussing using an Eaton on a VR and I now understand why they fit a clutch to the charger. As a roots type charger is positive displacement, it requires a means to limit the boost at idle. As mentioned elsewhere the guy on VR6OC who has fitted an Eaton, had to throttle the intake to the charger, as teh idle boost caused al sorts of issues. Using the clutch has the same effect here I guess. Elegant solution.
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
mrbeige wrote:Well, after discussing using an Eaton on a VR and I now understand why they fit a clutch to the charger. As a roots type charger is positive displacement, it requires a means to limit the boost at idle. As mentioned elsewhere the guy on VR6OC who has fitted an Eaton, had to throttle the intake to the charger, as teh idle boost caused al sorts of issues. Using the clutch has the same effect here I guess. Elegant solution.
Interesting...
Going to look into this some more.
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
ctwg60- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 770
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
ctwg60 wrote:YOUR NUTS!
just idle ODDUNIT chat.
No harm.
An example of an AC unit clutch.
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dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
You know what though....I love that idea. A clutched Eaton M92 on a VR. You could use the clutch mechanism from an AC compressor above. I wonder if it just like a switch, or you could provide the field coil above with a PWM type signal to allow it to slip....
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
mrbeige wrote:You know what though....I love that idea. A clutched Eaton M92 on a VR.
mrbeige wrote:
You could use the clutch mechanism from an AC compressor above.
I wonder if it just like a switch, or you could provide the field coil above with a PWM type signal to allow it to slip....
dunno but i bet it wouldn't be that hard ..
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Big advantage of the clutch I would of thought is that you don't need to over-rev the charger when the turbo kicks in.
ctwg60- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 770
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
exactly.ctwg60 wrote:Big advantage of the clutch I would of thought is that you don't need to over-rev the charger when the turbo kicks in.
62mm pulley time
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
You better make sure the clutch is working!
ctwg60- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 770
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
I don't think it would work. You need to see Tom's Eaton'd VR to see what you're letting yourself in for!
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
Aye, you're probably right, but wouldn't it be fun trying
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
kevhaywire wrote:I don't think it would work. You need to see Tom's Eaton'd VR to see what you're letting yourself in for!
where can I snoop that then?
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'
are the ac compressors in VR's clutched?
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
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