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Emerald for 8v G60's

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Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:13 pm

Pretty specific thread title but I'm considering Emerald as an option for my car at some point in the future, but it has to removable easily, daily car and although I maybe able to use the m3d ecu on a daily basis I can't install and setup in a weekend so here goes with soe of the boring stuff like ISV control and other such things all the below is taken from some pm's back and forward between myself and Rob.


CTWG60 wrote:Been house bound today and have been seriously looking at Emerald M3D. Could you take some time and look at these two pages at the bottom. They give pinouts for both M3D and digi 1 g60 ecu's. I'm thinking of making an adapter loom. But there is a lot I don't understand.

Like no co pot input, TB idle or WOT switch, ISV control, so it still going to be a permanent install which I really don't want. I just want to play at weekends and then plug the digi back in, in the week. Laughing Where's the digi lambda heater control output input etc. loads of unanswered questions, and your the man as far as I'm concerned

Can it be done? Please take a look for me.

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dirtytorque wrote:sure,I have some time now.
kinda doing a restore and re-build thing at the mo with the car.
Engine all out and stripped down with pistons out etc so..

i'll get back to you.
Could be interesting.
Are you worried about keeping it stock for sell on value?
I think it makes the car more attractive.
Easier to diagnose faults etc.Better fuel spark control.Wider audience of potential tuners.Wideband fueling.Personalising the driving feel for things like acceleration.Something you can't do on a rolling road i migt add.
It's the smart move.
Look at all the head scratching people do without access to the data from their engines.

And plus it is really interesting.

CTWG60 wrote:
dirtytorque wrote:sure,I have some time now.
kinda doing a restore and re-build thing at the mo with the car.
Engine all out and stripped down with pistons out etc so..

i'll get back to you.
Could be interesting.
Are you worried about keeping it stock for sell on value?
I think it makes the car more attractive.
Easier to diagnose faults etc.Better fuel spark control.Wider audience of potential tuners.Wideband fueling.Personalising the driving feel for things like acceleration.Something you can't do on a rolling road i migt add.
It's the smart move.
Look at all the head scratching JMC and Berko are doing without access to the data from their engines.
Once I get a solid engine base I am really hoping to prove the benifits.

And plus it is really interesting.

Yeah interest the main thing but I have to be able to just unplug it. I don't want to be rewiring, just want to plug it in and add some other sensors like a TB pot and lupo crank seal and trigger wheel. so what about ISV and co pot with novice to start??

dirtytorque wrote:
CTWG60 wrote:
Yeah interest the main thing but I have to be able to just unplug it. I don't want to be rewiring, just want to plug it in and add some other sensors like a TB pot and lupo crank seal and trigger wheel. so what about ISV and co pot with novice to start??


God,your so differcult.

Ok.
Here is what we will do.
Get hold of another g60 ecu.
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You will need to carefully cut the plug interface from the board so that you can solder some fly leads to them.
This will become your emerald ecu plug.
All the power earths and engine inputs/outputs that were available to digifant will all be there to use be used with Emerald.No fuss.
I should of thought of this myself really.
All the digifant pinouts on said loom plug are available in this book.
So I have all the info you need.
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This is how I'd do it anyway... 🤷
Tidy enuff for you?
You will have three spare inputs on the digifant loom.If you need more it will be for non digifant features anyway so you won't need to cut into anything.
You will need to think about your tach if you loose the coil and go coilpack.

CTWG60 wrote:
Emerald can do a tach signal I believe.

CTWG60 wrote:
dirtytorque wrote:
CTWG60 wrote:
so what about ISV and co pot with novice to start??
co pot will be lost.
You don't need it.
It is a digifant feature.
Something VW used for idle mixture control.
Emerald will not need it.

ISV control.
The VW isv is a PWM idle valve as oppose to the stepper motor kind.
I'll levae it to you to find out if Emerald can control such devices.
i imagine they can.I'd be very surprised to hear they can't.

Oh I just remembered it's the boost bleed that is a pain but if your not bleeding boost ie not making 1 bar then it's not needed. Hence the PB valve we looked at ages ago infact you sent me one did you not so that will be used. So we'll be leaving the co pot for air temp but not using the co middle pin with the emerald and I should be able to use the current idle valve as it is currently plumbed. How is the idle valve controled I've never got my head around it really is open by default but opened or closed more by the ECU depending on engine speed or knock bleed signals?

I was thinking of buying a 32pin male and female and making a waterproof adapter loom from the current ECU plug and from the Emerald 25 pin plug. So I'd be cutting all the wires to do this! 😁 Do you think it's possible to make the ECU socket waterproof? I am high maintenance I know! Laughing

Hang on if the ISV is open by default, I've unplugged it when the engine was running and idle either remained the same or did not change so I can leave it disconnected for the emerald adapter loom and control idle using the map sites below and at 800rpm and the cold start enrichment function and stablise it using ignition advance/retard if necessary. No?

Oh hang on the ISV would bleed boost continuously would it not under positive manifold pressure. Hmm OR is it a one way valve by default? Unless told otherwise?

dirtytorque wrote:
CTWG60 wrote: How is the idle valve controled I've never got my head around it really is open by default but opened or closed more by the ECU depending on engine speed or knock bleed signals?


Ok,you don't even need the isv anymore.
Modern engines don't have them.What I use mine for is just for cold starting.Just makes the engine crack to life that little bit more crisper.
It doesn't regulate the idle.MS does support closed loop idle control but I have no need for it.
The ecu sends a square wave signal at a fixed freqeuncy to the idle valve.So a fixed string of 01010101010101010.
The longer the square wave is high,i.e at logic level 1 for the period of signal the more the vale is closed,and via versa.
Do a google on pwm control.
It is how the servo's are controlled in radio controlled cars n such.

CTWG60 wrote:
I was thinking of buying a 32pin male and female and making a waterproof adapter loom from the current ECU plug and from the Emerald 25 pin plug. So I'd be cutting all the wires to do this! 😁 Do you think it's possible to make the ECU socket waterproof? I am high maintenance I know! Laughing
Must be.Just need to trawl the web for the right kit.

CTWG60 wrote:
Hang on if the ISV is open by default, I've unplugged it when the engine was running and idle either remained the same or did not change so I can leave it disconnected for the emerald adapter loom and control idle using the map sites below and at 800rpm and the cold start enrichment function and stablise it using ignition advance/retard if necessary. No?


Oh hang on the ISV would bleed boost continuously would it not under positive manifold pressure. Hmm OR is it a one way valve by default? Unless told otherwise?
With it unpluigged yest it would be a boost leak,so if you don't want to use it then you'd need to un plumb it.
Your idle will be setup with your throttle body bleed screw and for fuel and ignition map sites around your target idle speed?
Once setup it should be pretty solid.
But i'm sure Emerald will have some features that will enable finer control if need be.
If your engine is solid then your idle will be solid.

CTWG60 wrote:
I think I'll start an odd thread with this as the starting point. Good info! :thumb right:

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:39 am

More research...

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Lupo trigger seal!

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:39 am

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So I'm guessing pin 1 on digi "Starter Power" would be routed to pin 11 on Emerald "Ignition Sense Input" ?

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:24 am

yup.
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:37 am

OK then, and 2-7 lambda or wideband?

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:36 am

yup.
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:50 am

So pin 3 is the fuel pump relay switching wire at the rely board triggered by the ignition detection at pin 1.

So pin 3 would be wired to pin 20 on the Emerald ECU! Correct? What does
"switched earth" mean for pin 20 on the m3d?

Pin 4 in the knock sensor! Uh Oh no knock sense ability with emerald so not connected. That one is easy!

Pin 5 is the Co pot again not used so not connected.

Pin 6 Just the ground for all sensors is this ok to use as the ground for pin 30 on the M3d ecu?

Pin 7 NA knock sensor shield ground.

Pin 8 is the distributor positive, from the m3d manual wiring diagram I can see that this would be connected to the +8v on pin 14 with the signal wire Pin 18 going to pin 31 and the negative which isn't listed individually on the digi pinout put on the m3d is pin 32.

Pin 9 goes to 16 for air temp.

Pin 10 goes to 33 coolant temp.

Pin 11 is not used by Emerald TB FT Idle switch

Pin 12 is injector power which I'm really not sure about! Help!

Pin 13 - Pin 29 Ground

Looking a bit more at idle control or more importantly ISV control and found thhis snippet in the manual. Which is what I was worried about as I didn't want to unplump the ISV everytime i used the Emerald ECU.

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This means i can literally close the ISV when using the Emerald ECU and control idle speed via ignition. I could use the ISV for idle control but as a backup idea if control via ignition timing doesn't pan out. We shall see but the option is there.

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:43 am

Pin 14 is this no 4? I have no idea!! Help! ROB!

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:20 pm

Digifant pin 14 is the 12 volt out from the main relay.
On my car it is powering the 12 volts feeds to MS/fuel rail coil pack and isv.
So on your Emerald loom i'd take that to pin 28.

Pin 12 is the injector pulse pin on digifant.
Route that to Emerald 23,24 or 26.Injector drivers.

Yes 3 goes to 20 to turn on the fuel pump.
Yes,Digifant 6 should naturally go to emerald 30.
13-29.Yes.Easy.

Digifant pin 1 function has me a bit confused.Can't see what it is for.
It won't be connected to anything in my car as I ripped out the digifant stuff that I didn't need.
It is common with digifant ecu pin 1.Starter motor pin 50 and the ignition switch.(See page 61 62 in Bentley)

It must tell the digifant ecu that the engine is running under cranking conditions??/
MS just takes anything under X rpm to be cranking speed and thus woulodn't need it.
This is the only thing I can think that it is for!?!?!?!?!
In my Haynes manual it says:1 cranking supply ign switch.
The car will still turn over with pin 1 dissed off.Must be to save processing power on the Digifant chip so it didn't have to run calculations to see if the engine was running under cranking conditions.

Is that everything?
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:29 pm

Mercy grasshopper!

I'll go through some more tomorrow!

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:36 pm

can i have that emerald manual again?
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:42 pm

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:14 am

So 15 16 17 20 21 are not really much use!

Actually what is the "A/T controller" and what signals fuel enrichment? The WOT switch?

Pin 22 would hook up to one of the IAVC channels but why are there 3 channels?

Pin 23 Control Unit Relay Turn on! What is this?

pin 24 can hook to the coil or pin 12

pin 25 would that go to pin 25 ignition driver 1? Say negative terminal though!

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by mrbeige on Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:25 am

Could digi pin 23 be the +12v supply from the ignition switch? (Emerald pin 11) study

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:44 am

G60 ISV is not a stepper motor! channels are for the 4 or 5 pin outs on a stepper motor! bugger.

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:49 am

didn't we talk about this b4?
g60 isv is a pwm isv.Did you look into if emerald can control these?
In the configuration menu in the Emerald M3D package you can change the IACV type: to PWM.
You can also change the frequency of operation,and they have settings that are close to VW's operating frequency in that respect.


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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:59 am

OK found this!

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If you look at the table on this page pin 3 mentions PWM control.

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:28 am

Rob could you have a read of the overview page on this site please!!!!

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Opinion is needed! Tks.

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Sep 04, 2009 4:12 am

mrbeige wrote:Could digi pin 23 be the +12v supply from the ignition switch? (Emerald pin 11) study


Pin 23 is for the ISV.

Your 12 volts supply is best taken from the main ecu control relay digifant 14 ,which is triggered from the ignition switch.
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:28 am

Will you be getting a wideband sensor?
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:36 am

Yes but i don't want an innovate, just a later bosch probe. Save a bit of money! Emerald can data log/display the AFR. Actually do I even need a heated probe? Can you just fit a 2 wire wideband? Am I talking out my behind?

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:40 am

ctwg60 wrote:Rob could you have a read of the overview page on this site please!!!!

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Opinion is needed! Tks.

Seems like standard fair tbh.
Choosing a efi is just a case of choosing the one that will do the job for your engine.
Yan mentioned that this had Knock control,but true knock control is very differcult.
It is very hard to come up with a one system fits all knock system.
It's up to you mate.

The self mapping features sounded good,although again nearly all the aftermarket systems do this anyway.
I don't think you can go wrong with the Emerald up 2 u.
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by ctwg60 on Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:37 am

Just had to get this as was too cheap!

Link to Thing

gonna stick to Emerald! I've started so I'll finish! I'm going to fit the emerald bog standard TPS to the bypass elbow butterfly valve somehow!

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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by dirtytorque on Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:16 am

ctwg60 wrote:Just had to get this as was too cheap!

Link to Thing

gonna stick to Emerald! I've started so I'll finish! I'm going to fit the emerald bog standard TPS to the bypass elbow butterfly valve somehow!

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good idea.
Smile
I think i'd have been tempted at that price.
Re TPS:
Where there is a will there's a way. Cool 3
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Re: Emerald for 8v G60's

Post by mrbeige on Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:30 am

ctwg60 wrote:Just had to get this as was too cheap!

Link to Thing
Ah, the lupo crank trigger wheel. I was going to use one of these on my 2E Smile Good work, and good price

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