Multi valve engines
4 posters
OddUnit :: The Workshop :: Engine
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Multi valve engines
No real point to this thread.
My overriding impression of my 16vg60 as opposed to my 8v engine is that the power comes in much smoother.
Is this a feature of multi valve engines>
How does say the 12v vr6 compare to the 4motion engine in this regard for example?
Interesting page I found...
My overriding impression of my 16vg60 as opposed to my 8v engine is that the power comes in much smoother.
Is this a feature of multi valve engines>
How does say the 12v vr6 compare to the 4motion engine in this regard for example?
Interesting page I found...
Multi-valve Engines
3-valve engines
The earliest mass production multi-valve engines were 3-valves because of its simple construction - it needs only a single camshaft to drive both intake valves and the exhaust valve of each cylinder. Today, there are still a few car cars using this cheap but inefficient design, such as Fiat Palio and Mercedes V6 and V8 engines. Mercedes claim to use them because of emissions rather than cost reasons.
4-valve engines
A typical 2-valve engine has just 1/3 combustion chamber head area covered by the valves, but a 4-valve head increases that to more than 50%, hence smoother and quicker breathing. 4-valve design also benefits from a clean and effective combustion, because the spark plug can be placed in the middle.
4 valves are better to be driven by twin-cam, one for intake valves and one for exhaust valves. Some Honda and Mitsubishi models prefer to use sohc, driving the valves via rocker arms like the aforementioned Triumph. This could be a bit cheaper, but introduces more friction and hurts high speed power. Therefore the sportiest Honda and Mitsubishis still use dohc.
5-valve engines
It is arguable that whether 5 valves per cylinder helps raising engine efficiency. Audi claimed it does, but fail to provide evidence to support. In reality its 5V engines are no more powerful and torquey than its German rivals with 4 valves per cylinder.
5-valve design doesn’t guarantee covering more head area than 4-valver. Nevertheless, if the combustion chamber is in irregular shape like the picture shown, the valves may cover a larger area. The Ferrari F355 makes use of this to enhance high-speed breathing. Is there any disadvantage? Yes, faster breathing also harms low-speed torque if no counter measure is taken. Therefore it is really more suitable to sports cars.
All existing 5-valve engines have 3 intake valves and 2 exhaust valves per cylinder, still arranged as cross-flow. The exhaust valves are larger, but in terms of total area the intake valves are larger. In the F355, by arranging the outer intake valves opening 10° earlier than the center valve, it gets the swirl needed for better air / fuel mixture, hence more efficient burning and cleaner emission.
The advantage of 5-valve engine is still under question. Only a few car makers used it (VW group, Ferrari and the bankrupted Bugatti), but Formula One cars also no longer favour it. Even the Ferrari F1 cars which was once famous for its 5V engine has switched back to 4-valve design a few years ago.
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Multi valve engines
The 24V is a lot smoother and has a wider torque spread than the 12V, but as mentioned, it needed a variable intake and cam timing to fill in the torque at low rpms because it breathes better. If the 24V had no Variable intake and no variable timing, it would be flat as a pancake at low rpms.
Good engine for turbos though
Interesting what was said about 5V engines because VAG have dumped it and gone back to 4V
I'm sure Honda or Suzuki experimented with oval pistons and 8V per cylinder many moons ago......
Good engine for turbos though
Interesting what was said about 5V engines because VAG have dumped it and gone back to 4V
I'm sure Honda or Suzuki experimented with oval pistons and 8V per cylinder many moons ago......
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Multi valve engines
I wonder how long that article was written? VW have only recently reverted to 4valves per cylinder on the FSI engines, n'est ce pas?
Re: Multi valve engines
Multi-valve Engines
In the F355, by arranging the outer intake valves opening 10° earlier than the center valve, it gets the swirl needed for better air / fuel mixture, hence more efficient burning and cleaner emission.
That's quite interesting...
Also, I thought the VW heads were 4 valve per cylinder now because the FSI injector effectively took up the space of the 5th valve, but the extra benefits of FSI outweighed the loss of the valve area?
Toad- .:Mod:.
- Number of posts : 411
Re: Multi valve engines
I would suspect so. The FSI has funny shaped pistons to improve the fuel concentration around the spark plug too. FSI isn't true stratified fuel injection really, but it's getting there. At the moment the ECUs aren't really able to support that. I think it's getting there though.Toad wrote:<SNIP>but the extra benefits of FSI outweighed the loss of the valve area?
Sorry a bit OT there.
I read a good article a while ago comparing 2 valves per cylinder to 4 valves per cylinder and the benefits were almost limitless. It's all about valve curtain area, apparently
Re: Multi valve engines
And we all like curtains
I'm not sure VAG's move back to 16V for FSI was valve space related, cause if you look at this image, you can see the injector is actually underneath the intake valves, so 20V could have worked also.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I think as DT's post said, VAG just couldn't justify the extra cost of machining 20V heads when there is minimal gain. My cynical side still thinks the whole 20V thing was a marketing gimmick. And it also still strikes me as being a little odd that the first 20V heads had big inlet ports, but later went down to small ports. Very strange. Perhaps they had gas speed issues with the big ports and needed to speed it up for improved bottom end torque? So a 16V to begin with would have been better
I'm not sure VAG's move back to 16V for FSI was valve space related, cause if you look at this image, you can see the injector is actually underneath the intake valves, so 20V could have worked also.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I think as DT's post said, VAG just couldn't justify the extra cost of machining 20V heads when there is minimal gain. My cynical side still thinks the whole 20V thing was a marketing gimmick. And it also still strikes me as being a little odd that the first 20V heads had big inlet ports, but later went down to small ports. Very strange. Perhaps they had gas speed issues with the big ports and needed to speed it up for improved bottom end torque? So a 16V to begin with would have been better
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Multi valve engines
The reason 20vt are so popular is because it is a drop in engine with little fabrication.
Not sure they will necessarily outperform a 16vT?!?
I certainly agree that the whole ,....well if 16v is better than 8v's then 20 valves has to be even better does play into peoples thinking.
One thing is for sure, 2.0 litre 16v turbo engine is a tried and tested power combination i.e rally engines.
Although apparently they are thinking of going to 1.6 litre engines for rally.
Sad times.Everything is being watered down.
Not sure they will necessarily outperform a 16vT?!?
I certainly agree that the whole ,....well if 16v is better than 8v's then 20 valves has to be even better does play into peoples thinking.
One thing is for sure, 2.0 litre 16v turbo engine is a tried and tested power combination i.e rally engines.
Although apparently they are thinking of going to 1.6 litre engines for rally.
Sad times.Everything is being watered down.
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
Re: Multi valve engines
Nice pic. I like that. Guess it is showing the variable geometry inlet too?
Toad- .:Mod:.
- Number of posts : 411
Re: Multi valve engines
kevhaywire wrote:And we all like curtains
I'm not sure VAG's move back to 16V for FSI was valve space related, cause if you look at this image, you can see the injector is actually underneath the intake valves, so 20V could have worked also.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
I think as DT's post said, VAG just couldn't justify the extra cost of machining 20V heads when there is minimal gain. My cynical side still thinks the whole 20V thing was a marketing gimmick. And it also still strikes me as being a little odd that the first 20V heads had big inlet ports, but later went down to small ports. Very strange. Perhaps they had gas speed issues with the big ports and needed to speed it up for improved bottom end torque? So a 16V to begin with would have been better
I remember reading somewhere that the third intake valve actually acted as a restriction to the intake charge ?!?!!..
can't remember where.I'll have to dig it out.
dirtytorque- .:Charged:.
- Number of posts : 1101
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