Dry Sump Designs
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OddUnit :: The Workshop :: Projects
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Re: Dry Sump Designs
I'm hoping to calculate the flow rate of OEM pump shortly, I have all the equations now. You may be interested to know that a crank in normal use will leak 2cc of oil per revolution back into the pan. Yeah, that's 14litres a minute, so obviously the pump flows much higher than that.
I've designed my pump to have gears which are ~30mm diameter and 40mm deep. OEM gears are about 25mm diameter and only 28mm deep so probs about half the flow rate of mine.
Yeah, spur gears generate flow that's right pressure is a function of the diameter of the main oil gallery - smaller diameter, more pressure. it's to do with the flow rate analogy that Yan mentioned
Bentley tells me that the PRV is 80psi +-3psi so that figure sounds right Yan.
The PRV will be too messy to incorporate into my main pump design now, so I think I will make it in-line. Perhaps a ball type valve or something similar.
Yeah, the pressure in the main bearings is kinda like a water jet, forcing the two metals apart. I have some good technical papers on oil flow in engines etc but they're a bit heavy reading if you don't understand engine dynamics. Not that i'm the ultra master or anything, but they can be interesting.
I've designed my pump to have gears which are ~30mm diameter and 40mm deep. OEM gears are about 25mm diameter and only 28mm deep so probs about half the flow rate of mine.
Yeah, spur gears generate flow that's right pressure is a function of the diameter of the main oil gallery - smaller diameter, more pressure. it's to do with the flow rate analogy that Yan mentioned
Bentley tells me that the PRV is 80psi +-3psi so that figure sounds right Yan.
The PRV will be too messy to incorporate into my main pump design now, so I think I will make it in-line. Perhaps a ball type valve or something similar.
Yeah, the pressure in the main bearings is kinda like a water jet, forcing the two metals apart. I have some good technical papers on oil flow in engines etc but they're a bit heavy reading if you don't understand engine dynamics. Not that i'm the ultra master or anything, but they can be interesting.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Cheers Yan'll be there and Boost Pandarington....
That's correct regarding pressure and flow etc. It's the old crimping of a garden hose analogy Mains water pressure is around a bar IIRC, but stick your thumb over the end of the hose and the flow reduces, but the pressure increases dramatically, which is just what you need for watering those dhalias from a distance
That's correct regarding pressure and flow etc. It's the old crimping of a garden hose analogy Mains water pressure is around a bar IIRC, but stick your thumb over the end of the hose and the flow reduces, but the pressure increases dramatically, which is just what you need for watering those dhalias from a distance
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
kevhaywire wrote: which is just what you need for watering those dhalias from a distance
Why does sound like a euphemism for something else to me?
Yandards- .:Cammed:.
- Number of posts : 163
Re: Dry Sump Designs
I think it's prison talk. Has Kev done time?
Draft diss due in Monday. Trying to get it to my supervisor for a read through and make sure I'm not talking complete ****!
Pump has come on in leaps and bounds, just finished centrifuge housing yesterday which I'm happy with.
Still need to design the tank but I really don't see that taking too long. 2 hours tops.
Draft diss due in Monday. Trying to get it to my supervisor for a read through and make sure I'm not talking complete ****!
Pump has come on in leaps and bounds, just finished centrifuge housing yesterday which I'm happy with.
Still need to design the tank but I really don't see that taking too long. 2 hours tops.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Not a euphanism, I just enjoy squirting liquids over long distances. I've got my Wurth brake cleaner bottle squirting from the garage door to the back wall now
God I'm bored with cars. I want to do something wreckless and completely stupid, like two M3 engines in a Lupo, or bi-turboing a smart car or something.....
God I'm bored with cars. I want to do something wreckless and completely stupid, like two M3 engines in a Lupo, or bi-turboing a smart car or something.....
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
kevhaywire wrote:Not a euphanism, I just enjoy squirting liquids over long distances. I've got my Wurth brake cleaner bottle squirting from the garage door to the back wall now
God I'm bored with cars. I want to do something wreckless and completely stupid, like two M3 engines in a Lupo, or bi-turboing a smart car or something.....
Humn, both of those options would need a remote control too as you would have nowhere to sit!
I take it tinkering with Neil's new VR is not satisfying your urges?
Yandards- .:Cammed:.
- Number of posts : 163
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Yan, I am trying to work out whether I need to blank off the main vertical oil gallery in the bottom of the block that the OEM pump feeds into.
I have decided to take my line in to engine through the centre of the OEM oil cooler by replacing the oil cooler cap with an M22 style fitting (same bolt as the cap AFAIK). This seems a sensible place to put the line in, as it means the OEM filter setup can be retained and the geometry of the oil cooler means that I can replace the oil cooler cap with a simple dish looking adapter plate and a hollow M22 with my high pressure line fitting on the outside end.
Good ideas?
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
No it's not and you're right about the remote control. I think one M3 engine with gearbox is the same length as a Smart Car
I have some new found interest again. Been wiring up the DBW controller over the weekend and my god, what a faff.
I also found out (the hard way) about the ECU's automatic 1750rpm rev limit, which kicks in if the 2 throttle pots and the 2 pedal pots don't agree. Still, pensioners drive at 20mph in front of me all the time, so it's all good Karma.
I suppose I should talk about that in my own thread really..... Sorry Mr Monkey!
I have some new found interest again. Been wiring up the DBW controller over the weekend and my god, what a faff.
I also found out (the hard way) about the ECU's automatic 1750rpm rev limit, which kicks in if the 2 throttle pots and the 2 pedal pots don't agree. Still, pensioners drive at 20mph in front of me all the time, so it's all good Karma.
I suppose I should talk about that in my own thread really..... Sorry Mr Monkey!
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
No probs matey :-) all talk is good I reckon.
DBW is a faff imo, but then I hate electronics.
Got my draft dissertation in today, 12000 words, 59 pages of awesome.
DBW is a faff imo, but then I hate electronics.
Got my draft dissertation in today, 12000 words, 59 pages of awesome.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
I always wondered at college if someone actually read every word of such a dissertation, or just skim reads it 59 pages x however many students = some big reading!
Best of luck with that mate, should stand you in good stead for your future
DBW sorted. I'll exhume my thread and stick some updates in it. Might even take a little video of the throttle moving as I press the pedal with my hand. It's surprisingly funky.
Best of luck with that mate, should stand you in good stead for your future
DBW sorted. I'll exhume my thread and stick some updates in it. Might even take a little video of the throttle moving as I press the pedal with my hand. It's surprisingly funky.
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Cheers matey. I got my draft back within about 6 hours from my supervisor with 2 pages of advice which was really helpful.
I'm just looking at flow analysis of the sump pan and a section i designed especially for the pump to see if they're good or not!
deadline a week friday :/
I'm just looking at flow analysis of the sump pan and a section i designed especially for the pump to see if they're good or not!
deadline a week friday :/
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
I'm getting a flow velocity out of my sump pan of 3000m/s, based on the air oil mist (custom density and viscosity based on 70:30 air oil ratio).
So either my scavenge pumps pull at Mach 9, or my CFD is going wrong.
So either my scavenge pumps pull at Mach 9, or my CFD is going wrong.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
boost panda wrote:I'm getting a flow velocity out of my sump pan of 3000m/s, based on the air oil mist (custom density and viscosity based on 70:30 air oil ratio).
So either my scavenge pumps pull at Mach 9, or my CFD is going wrong.
I will go with CFD and not a mach 9 pump
Yandards- .:Cammed:.
- Number of posts : 163
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Yeah, not good.
I got better flow results out of another section that I designed, the part which routes scavenged oil mist through to the centrifuge.
We have a tiny little cad room at uni that has computers with 8 cores and 12gb of ram
yeah that's where the cfd people live! lol. The amount of times I've come in and there's keyboards with "CFD Running" signs on. God. But it's stuff like Formula 1 wing designs etc so it's kinda cool.
COming up to 14,000 words on the diss, hoping to finish this weekend and bind on monday with a nice bit of headroom before friday's deadline
I got better flow results out of another section that I designed, the part which routes scavenged oil mist through to the centrifuge.
We have a tiny little cad room at uni that has computers with 8 cores and 12gb of ram
yeah that's where the cfd people live! lol. The amount of times I've come in and there's keyboards with "CFD Running" signs on. God. But it's stuff like Formula 1 wing designs etc so it's kinda cool.
COming up to 14,000 words on the diss, hoping to finish this weekend and bind on monday with a nice bit of headroom before friday's deadline
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
I fixed my CFD today, the inlet conditions were wrong. I changed the inlet to 0.035kg/s mass flow rate and all was well.
6.5m/s through the scavenge pickup
6.5m/s through the scavenge pickup
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
boost panda wrote:I fixed my CFD today, the inlet conditions were wrong. I changed the inlet to 0.035kg/s mass flow rate and all was well.
6.5m/s through the scavenge pickup
That's way better.
Think my current PC would be handy at CFD, core i7 at 3.4 ghz, 6 gig memory and a 60Gb working area on an SSD with a throughput of 270Mb/s read and write..
It certainly encodes DVDs at a massive rate !
Yandards- .:Cammed:.
- Number of posts : 163
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Nice
I recently upgraded to a quad, but AMD due to budget, and SATA3s on RAID0. They seem to manage about 200Mb/s which is reasonable (500GB Samsung Spinpoint F3s).
Performance tab on Task Manager said I was using 5.7GB of ram at uni today doing the CFD on the sump pan. I've split it into three sections to increase vacuum and reduce pumping loss of the pistons. Having all three CFDs up, one iterating and manipulating the other two seems to take its toll on the old hardware!
Getting some serious swirl through the pan though, looks like mini typhoons! Very cool Just about to write up that section then bed as I'll be back on campus in the morning.
I recently upgraded to a quad, but AMD due to budget, and SATA3s on RAID0. They seem to manage about 200Mb/s which is reasonable (500GB Samsung Spinpoint F3s).
Performance tab on Task Manager said I was using 5.7GB of ram at uni today doing the CFD on the sump pan. I've split it into three sections to increase vacuum and reduce pumping loss of the pistons. Having all three CFDs up, one iterating and manipulating the other two seems to take its toll on the old hardware!
Getting some serious swirl through the pan though, looks like mini typhoons! Very cool Just about to write up that section then bed as I'll be back on campus in the morning.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Handed in my diss this morning, feeling good about it. 9th person in the year to submit, and in a whole day early too!
Happy to email the pdf to those interested, it's about 15000 words and 100 pages though so be warned.
Only 4 other courseworks and 6 exams to do now...
Happy to email the pdf to those interested, it's about 15000 words and 100 pages though so be warned.
Only 4 other courseworks and 6 exams to do now...
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
boost panda wrote:Nice
I recently upgraded to a quad, but AMD due to budget, and SATA3s on RAID0. They seem to manage about 200Mb/s which is reasonable (500GB Samsung Spinpoint F3s).
I had an Amstrad 'Green screen' word processor when I was at College! You students don't know you're born these days, tsk!
What are your Spinpoints like for noise? Thinking of putting something better in my NAS. Is your RAID 0 working properly? It's seeing your 3 x 500 as one 1.5TB volume? So many pseudo RAIDs around these days that don't feckin work like proper raid....
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
LOL Yeah we are blessed with technology!
The spinpoints are silent. It was a choice between these and Caviar blacks, but i found some reviews which said the F3s are much better.
Yeah the RAID is working as predicted I think. I get 200MB/S read and a little less write. It's not quite SSD speeds, but it's not far off and the 2x 500GB only cost me about £65 delivered! Using the Onboard RAID controller too. Being mechanical disks, my usable storage space won't shrink when a bad sector is found so the drives stay the same size.
Yeah, Win 7 64-bit sees it as one drive under windows, lists it as a SCSI device LOL, total capacity 995GB or something like that. The BIOS sees them as two physical drives, SATA 1 and SATA 2 in RAID, everything else in IDE mode (like DVD Drive etc). I think it takes about 20 seconds from BOOT finishing through "Loading Windows" to login screen. Not lightning quick, but much faster than the old 160GB I had (and never filled!)
I used a program called HDTach to benchmark the speeds. I'll do some more benches tonight and post up the screenies.
My mobo is the ASUS-M4A89GTD-PRO. I love asus, I've never had a problem with them and they only get swapped when at least 1 generation out of date.
The spinpoints are silent. It was a choice between these and Caviar blacks, but i found some reviews which said the F3s are much better.
Yeah the RAID is working as predicted I think. I get 200MB/S read and a little less write. It's not quite SSD speeds, but it's not far off and the 2x 500GB only cost me about £65 delivered! Using the Onboard RAID controller too. Being mechanical disks, my usable storage space won't shrink when a bad sector is found so the drives stay the same size.
Yeah, Win 7 64-bit sees it as one drive under windows, lists it as a SCSI device LOL, total capacity 995GB or something like that. The BIOS sees them as two physical drives, SATA 1 and SATA 2 in RAID, everything else in IDE mode (like DVD Drive etc). I think it takes about 20 seconds from BOOT finishing through "Loading Windows" to login screen. Not lightning quick, but much faster than the old 160GB I had (and never filled!)
I used a program called HDTach to benchmark the speeds. I'll do some more benches tonight and post up the screenies.
My mobo is the ASUS-M4A89GTD-PRO. I love asus, I've never had a problem with them and they only get swapped when at least 1 generation out of date.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Nice
The trouble with online reviews is you can't trust them unless the vast majority of people agree. I spent a whole day researching the best value 2TB drives and there were good and bad comments for all the discs, including the blacks, Barracuda XT7200, Spinpoints, Deskstars, you name it!
In the end I settled on the ones that came with the NAS, LOL! Some cheap old 5400rpm Seagate jobs. Even they fail as well. Still, it's only for streaming movies to Apple TV, so it's not like I'm going to lose critical data!
And something else that gets on my goat with hard disks is they market 6GB SATA bandwidth, but do they think we're stupid?!? The limiting factor of hard disks will always be physical speed. They can't spin fast enough to keep up with the bandwidth and even then you're limited to 1000Mbs network speed in the case of a NAS 15,000rpm SCSI is about as fast as it gets at the moment, but huuuuuuuge £££s for such luxury.
Anyway, ramble ramble.... good luck with your dissertation mate!
The trouble with online reviews is you can't trust them unless the vast majority of people agree. I spent a whole day researching the best value 2TB drives and there were good and bad comments for all the discs, including the blacks, Barracuda XT7200, Spinpoints, Deskstars, you name it!
In the end I settled on the ones that came with the NAS, LOL! Some cheap old 5400rpm Seagate jobs. Even they fail as well. Still, it's only for streaming movies to Apple TV, so it's not like I'm going to lose critical data!
And something else that gets on my goat with hard disks is they market 6GB SATA bandwidth, but do they think we're stupid?!? The limiting factor of hard disks will always be physical speed. They can't spin fast enough to keep up with the bandwidth and even then you're limited to 1000Mbs network speed in the case of a NAS 15,000rpm SCSI is about as fast as it gets at the moment, but huuuuuuuge £££s for such luxury.
Anyway, ramble ramble.... good luck with your dissertation mate!
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
I still think that for raw performance an SSD is so much better than an HDD, you have to ignore the sustained transfer speeds, although the sandforce SSDs run at 270Mb read and write, and look at the access time - that is where the real difference kicks in.
As for a RAID array, my server is running a 4 x 250Gb RAID 5 array, this gives me the data redundancy, 750Gb of storage and a good sustained data throughput.
For NAS type stuff you really don't need massive speeds, especially when the only access being made to the drives is by a couple of users.
As for a RAID array, my server is running a 4 x 250Gb RAID 5 array, this gives me the data redundancy, 750Gb of storage and a good sustained data throughput.
For NAS type stuff you really don't need massive speeds, especially when the only access being made to the drives is by a couple of users.
Yandards- .:Cammed:.
- Number of posts : 163
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Yeah if you search hard enough you will find good and bad reviews for anything on the internet!
I find seagates loud, but I've never ever had one fail. The Quantum I had years back was quiet but failed quickly. So I decided that loud = reliable!
Yeah, it's all internal circuitboard speeds! Like saying an ECU makes changes ever x milliseconds, but you know it don't happen that fast in the chamber.
I've never managed to fill up more than 100GB on a drive, even if it has windows on :/ I'm sure these 500s will last me a while yet. Perhaps CAD/CFD files will fill them up. I think my whole diss was about 100MB. The CAD files are only a few 100k each, and then the assemblies just reference them with how they fit together so they're tiny too. CFD can get big ish, I think the flow model through the sump pan was 100MB per bank, and it had 3 banks in it. Not huge, but the biggest part of the whole report.
Yeah SSDs are great for performance. There's a guy on youtube who chained a bunch together in a raid, like 20 of them, and got 5+GB/s transfer rate. It was impractical, but quite impressive!
Latency is important, but I find that different speeds will offer slight performance gains in the case of a few MB/s. It's certainly the case with RAM. If you buy good quality ram you can tweak it a little bit. I run mine at a lower speed than normal (1333Mhz), but at tighter memory timings so it actually outperforms its rated 1600Mhz speed. But that's real geeky stuff.
Data redundancy is good, I don't really have much on here I need to save so I use USB sticks which is quite pikey i know. I really only have my diss and uni work which needs backing up, but no doubt in the future I might look at another RAID option.
I only discovered NAS stuff recently. Is it just a box which you use purely for storage which is networked? that's basically it right?
I find seagates loud, but I've never ever had one fail. The Quantum I had years back was quiet but failed quickly. So I decided that loud = reliable!
Yeah, it's all internal circuitboard speeds! Like saying an ECU makes changes ever x milliseconds, but you know it don't happen that fast in the chamber.
I've never managed to fill up more than 100GB on a drive, even if it has windows on :/ I'm sure these 500s will last me a while yet. Perhaps CAD/CFD files will fill them up. I think my whole diss was about 100MB. The CAD files are only a few 100k each, and then the assemblies just reference them with how they fit together so they're tiny too. CFD can get big ish, I think the flow model through the sump pan was 100MB per bank, and it had 3 banks in it. Not huge, but the biggest part of the whole report.
Yeah SSDs are great for performance. There's a guy on youtube who chained a bunch together in a raid, like 20 of them, and got 5+GB/s transfer rate. It was impractical, but quite impressive!
Latency is important, but I find that different speeds will offer slight performance gains in the case of a few MB/s. It's certainly the case with RAM. If you buy good quality ram you can tweak it a little bit. I run mine at a lower speed than normal (1333Mhz), but at tighter memory timings so it actually outperforms its rated 1600Mhz speed. But that's real geeky stuff.
Data redundancy is good, I don't really have much on here I need to save so I use USB sticks which is quite pikey i know. I really only have my diss and uni work which needs backing up, but no doubt in the future I might look at another RAID option.
I only discovered NAS stuff recently. Is it just a box which you use purely for storage which is networked? that's basically it right?
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
Re: Dry Sump Designs
Aye, Network Attached Storage is what it stands for
It's just so much nicer than those sluggish USB external drives. Many of them have their own torrent, squeezebox and itunes servers built in, so you don't even need the PC on half the time.
My vision of the future is tablet PC based. The actual need for people to sit at a desk in front of a box is slowly dying out I think. If you need screen size, pipe it into your TV
Anyway, I digress....
Yeah access time for me is the most important thing. I hate waiting for things to initialize as it just adds to the overall delay. Bandwidth as Yan says isn't a big deal over the LAN. Streaming ripped BluRay discs over a home network presents a few streaming performance problems, but nothing a better router and 1000Mbs hardline can't correct. Wifi is garbage for media streaming, imo, of course
You've never filled up a 100GB drive? LOL. I guess it's what you use a PC for though isn't it? I only use mine for music and films and you need shed loads of space for that unfortunately.
Using H.264 compression to rip movies into iTunes does a good job, but even so, a 7GB raw DVD file can still be pretty big! Average movies without much complexity average 1GB, but graphically rich films like Avatar are 3.5 - 4GB after compression!! That's why I NEED a NAS. You can't even hope to store and stream a 500+ film library with USB drives
So is SSD maturing now then? I thought it had severe problems with performance after so many writes? What kind of SSD sizes are available now?
It's just so much nicer than those sluggish USB external drives. Many of them have their own torrent, squeezebox and itunes servers built in, so you don't even need the PC on half the time.
My vision of the future is tablet PC based. The actual need for people to sit at a desk in front of a box is slowly dying out I think. If you need screen size, pipe it into your TV
Anyway, I digress....
Yeah access time for me is the most important thing. I hate waiting for things to initialize as it just adds to the overall delay. Bandwidth as Yan says isn't a big deal over the LAN. Streaming ripped BluRay discs over a home network presents a few streaming performance problems, but nothing a better router and 1000Mbs hardline can't correct. Wifi is garbage for media streaming, imo, of course
You've never filled up a 100GB drive? LOL. I guess it's what you use a PC for though isn't it? I only use mine for music and films and you need shed loads of space for that unfortunately.
Using H.264 compression to rip movies into iTunes does a good job, but even so, a 7GB raw DVD file can still be pretty big! Average movies without much complexity average 1GB, but graphically rich films like Avatar are 3.5 - 4GB after compression!! That's why I NEED a NAS. You can't even hope to store and stream a 500+ film library with USB drives
So is SSD maturing now then? I thought it had severe problems with performance after so many writes? What kind of SSD sizes are available now?
kevhaywire- .:Stroked:.
- Number of posts : 605
Re: Dry Sump Designs
AFAIK, SSDs shrink in size after so many writes (in the millions) so they eventually get smaller and smaller.
But if you upgrade every couple of years or so anyways,I guess it doesn't matter.
I have a USB2/3? mem stick now and I can read off it at 25mb/s! it seems a huge leap forward for me! lol
I agree with wifi. I never use any wifi unless I have to even with laptops. I just don't think it's all that good.
I remember the days off ripping films although for me it was video CDs and DVDs into MPEG-4! LOL. I'm sure it has come on in leaps and bounds now
As with any technology, it will always get better. I'm sure any bugs SSDs have will get ironed out, and soon mechanical drives no matter the size will be cheap as chips.
But if you upgrade every couple of years or so anyways,I guess it doesn't matter.
I have a USB2/3? mem stick now and I can read off it at 25mb/s! it seems a huge leap forward for me! lol
I agree with wifi. I never use any wifi unless I have to even with laptops. I just don't think it's all that good.
I remember the days off ripping films although for me it was video CDs and DVDs into MPEG-4! LOL. I'm sure it has come on in leaps and bounds now
As with any technology, it will always get better. I'm sure any bugs SSDs have will get ironed out, and soon mechanical drives no matter the size will be cheap as chips.
boost panda- .:Bored:.
- Number of posts : 307
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