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Engine orientation

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Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:11 pm

If you dry sumped an engine, could you lie it down on its side?

Or is there something major that i'm missing?
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Re: Engine orientation

Post by mrbeige on Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:21 am

Hmmm, dunno. What type of oil system do they use in performance bikes? most of their engines have one bank of cylinders cranked right over.

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Re: Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:49 pm

I'm not sure, I don't know much about bikes :-s
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Re: Engine orientation

Post by mrbeige on Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:45 pm

Apparently, some bike run dry sumps, and have rotated engines, so I guess you can, however, I'm still not sure if you NEED a dry sump in that instance

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Re: Engine orientation

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:01 am

Yeah you can run a dry sumped engine at any angle in theory, although engines are sometimes canted to a particular angle for a reason. Gyroscopic effects maybe? Dunno, LOL!

In otherwords, would laying an inline 4 completely horizontal cause the car to 'pull' to one side because the reciprocating masses are all firing to one side of the car? I'm just thinking of flat 4s and 6s being horizontally opposed for that very reason?

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Re: Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:41 pm

Yeah you could well be right. That makes a lot of sense!!

Just thoughts really... it's nice to post up somewhere with real thinkers and likeminded people Very Happy
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Re: Engine orientation

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:49 am

Yeah I like this forum. Shame it's so quiet these days Sad

I was thinking more on this last night during the missus's mind numbing soaps.

Have you ever seen those radial aero engines? There were 2 types, a fixed crankcase where the pistons rotated the propeller, and fixed pistons where the crankcases rotated the prop! Very clever stuff, but it got me thinking about balancing the reciprocating masses and how it would affect cars.

V6s and V8s kind of balance themselves out, but inlines I suspect need to run a quite a specific angle.

Have you ever been in a V8 or flat 4/6 cranking over? It's a weird sensation.....like a you've got 4 lads on either side of the car rocking it! That's how strong the reciprocating forces are!

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Re: Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:28 am

Yeah, it does seem to have been quiet. Lots of thread with a last pot in 2009 :/

I haven't seen the radials but I know what you're talking about. One of my lecturers used to work for Rolls Royce back in the day and he tells us about them from time to time.

Yeah that makes sense with the V engines. I think you're right about aying an inline 4 down as well, all those pistons going the same way horizontally can't be a good thing.

Sounds like fun Very Happy I think we should build one and put it in a C. Yup.
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Re: Engine orientation

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:45 am

I guess you could lay an inline 4 flat as a mid engine layout, and face the cylinders to the rear or front? In fact, isn't that how the Merc A series is laid out? I'm sure the engine on the tha thing is under the floor?

Anyway, how about a compact inline 4 turbo laid flat on each axle? 4WD, uber grunt and just generally funky!

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Re: Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:32 am

Have you guys seen the Merc A class body roll test? It's on YT, shows the car going through cones.

It tips. Actually tips over (ok you don't see it tip, but it deffo gets some serious angle up on 2 wheels!). We got shown it in Chassis Engineering as a "When you get the roll centre wrong" example!

The A series has a lump up front, at least the 2005 model does, unless Google is lying to me.

That would be fun...have you seen the Durocco?

The Durocco - Twin 16v Mk2 Scirocco
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Re: Engine orientation

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:13 am

And a huge company like Mercedes with a racing pedigree getting the roll centre wrong is inexcusable!!!

That was a combination of a stumpy little wheel base and driver and drivetrain weight set too high!

The Suzuki SJ-10 must be another example of "When Roll Centres go bad" at your college?

I love chassis engineering. Probably more than engines. It's ultimately more satisfying because it's harder to get right.




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Re: Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:08 am

Yeah, I feel the same. Much harder than engine stuff Very Happy

Haven't heard of the Suzi, but will have a look into it!

Doing an SAE-stle paper this morning on the recent and current aerodynamic developments in Motorsport. Just covered wind tunnels and going to write about road testing now.
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Re: Engine orientation

Post by Yandards on Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:47 am

No real reason you can't fit an engine at any angle really, an engine is balanced internally so as long as it doesn't sit at an extreme point in the chassis (too far forward or off to one side) then it would be ok. I suspect the gyro effect is only a major issue when not in gear, we don't run jet engines counter clockwise on the RH wing and clockwise on the LH wing and they run a lot faster.

Bigger problem is getting a conventional upright engine to run with a dry sump at a funny angle, all the oil return systems are designed to run with the aid of gravity, you will need to consider this and fit a suitably sized scavenge system.

The air cooled aero engines were the end result of a quest for more power, this resulted in more cylinders and as they were air cooled the easiest solution was a circle of cylinders. Balancing was not too hard as long as you remember that just like a car engine opposite pistons are running. What has a huge effect on aero engines is the properllor instead, consider helicopters!

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Re: Engine orientation

Post by boost panda on Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:48 am

Cheers Yan.

Spoke to my supervisor again today. Was a real eye opener: He can get any of his Diss'n projects rapid prototyped by Renault absolutely free of charge.

Would be really good to make at least a prototype dry sump system. Concensus on engine choice is VR6 now. I've been offered an engine on CF and have bagged a second engine stand (Prodigal has his spare PG on mine!) so it's looking good so far.

I just want to get some physical dimensions from the engine, and also see how the oil routes up to the head and returns. Also, how the valvetrain is lubricated (hollow cams, shaft bearings etc).

I'd like to do a computer flow model of oil through the engine if I can get a decent enough scale model together.
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