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OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:56 pm

Was chatting with a colleague at work today about Megasquirt and he asked me why I wasn't using a G400 ECU out a *******! I hadn't even thought about it to be fair, but we (Pi Shurlok) have in the past sold G400s with a full software development platform. Obviously we don't sell those ECUs now as they have been discontinued, but second hand ones are easy to come by. We even have some existing strategies that can be used.

[/EDIT]Not allowed to mention which ECU were using at Pi, in this case[EDIT]


Last edited by mrbeige on Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:37 am

Interesting What do you mean by a software development platform?
How tuneable would it be?
Is is ODB2 ?
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:53 am

Limitless tuneablility.

When I say development platform, I mean that you could develop your own strategies.

When you say OBD2, what exactly do you mean? The standard software would be junked in favour of some proprietary software. You could potentially develop the software to include the OBD2 requirements, but really there is no need, as OBD2 is essentially legislated system requirements to satisfy Californian emissions standards.

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:13 am

I see.So basicallly a good platform for a developer if you were so inclined.
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:49 am

Well, yes, but you could quite happily use a strategy that is already developed, and then it's just a matter of tuning/mapping/calibrating it. I have access to existing gasoline strategies....including knock sensing etc. Not sure if it would support EGT, but I suppose you could fairly easily put together a small circuit to convert a thermocouple input into a standard analogue input on the G400 (I suspect)

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:13 am

ok..What software would you use to tune and log from it then ?

well if you go down this route and want to sell your ms let me know. Smile
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:17 am

You would use ATI-Vision with an ATI-Vision Hub. There is also a possibility to use a free CCP application, but not so sure on that.

It will be brilliant experience for my new job role, as it goes, so as long as the ECU isn't prohibitive, then I think I'll be using it.


Last edited by mrbeige on Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:39 am; edited 1 time in total

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The good lady wife's Golf VR
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:28 am

what's the new role then?
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:16 pm

OpenECU Technical Sales & Product Support Engineer

Here is an overview of OpenECU - Clicky

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by thegtiman on Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:59 pm

mrbeige wrote:Was chatting with a colleague at work today about Megasquirt and he asked me why I wasn't using a G400 ECU out a *******! I hadn't even thought about it to be fair, but we (Pi Shurlok) have in the past sold G400s with a full software development platform. Obviously we don't sell those ECUs now as they have been discontinued, but second hand ones are easy to come by. We even have some existing strategies that can be used.

What were you planning on using the MS in though?

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:00 pm

thegtiman wrote:What were you planning on using the MS in though?
16vT in my Corrado Smile

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by thegtiman on Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:09 pm

mrbeige wrote:
thegtiman wrote:What were you planning on using the MS in though?
16vT in my Corrado Smile

Ok.

For an older car like a Corrado, the simplicity of a MS system will more than match the functionality of engine and car.

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:21 pm

I do agree, but in this case, it's actually more about experience with the products that I sell and support as part of my job. Very Happy I think I might start off with MS though, as it's sat in the garage right now anyway.

The ****** ECU in question is from mk1/2 4 cylinder auto ******s, so not exactly up to date. That particular ECU just has more I/O, to support the auto box, that can be used for whatever I need. The complexity can also be adjusted depending on what you want from the ECU. For example, I could configure it to be as simple as MS to start with, and then build from there.


Last edited by mrbeige on Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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£300 Corrado 1.8 16v
The good lady wife's Golf VR
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:32 pm

MS will give you a feel for the whole engine management and tuning concepts in a real world situation.
I'd concentrate on that first,remember it was originally designed as an educational tool.
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by thegtiman on Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:48 am

dirtytorque wrote:MS will give you a feel for the whole engine management and tuning concepts in a real world situation.
I'd concentrate on that first,remember it was originally designed as an educational tool.

I agree.
MS, if installed and debugged properly is a very good way to understand the basics of control, calibration and engine developement. Being an 'open' platform, allows the user to modify the firmware to have his own custom strategy, if I can call it that.
I have built about 50 of the things and still learning Laughing

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:16 am

Agreed gentlemen. MS first, OpenECU later

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The good lady wife's Golf VR
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:25 am

so with that said have you found any diagrams showing what sort of sensory input the mondeo would use?

Would you have to develop the software in assembler or C if you wanted to change anything? Smile
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:32 am

Pi used to sell the G400s for development use along with their platform software, so I have access to the I/O config. I'll see if I can dig it up later today. Uber-busy at the moment trying to get our new ECU running with diesel direct injection on an LDV van we have (we're only really interested in the engine).

It's all done in Matlab/Simulink, with the OpenECU blockset, so nice and easy to do really tongue

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The good lady wife's Golf VR
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:56 am

I like your way of thinking Stu!

Agreed with the other guys though, a 16VT is well suited to the Squirt and you can do what you like with it , within reason.

I've been thinking along similar lines myself, although still from the VAG stable. Can you see any reason why an Audi S4 ECU wouldn't work on a VR6 turbo? I can't Very Happy

I'm talking about the old 2.7 V6 biturbo. It has one throttle, 1 MAF, 2 knock sensors, 1 crank sensor and 1 cam position sensor. Exactly what the VR6 has. The ECU won't know the difference between a 15 deg V6 and 90 deg one. I think there may even be just the one N75 valve covering both turbos, I'll have to check, but even so, if it does run two, the obsolete one can be removed in software Very Happy

I am Mr OE these days. That is an OE V6 turbo engine management system, with wideband as standard, so is perfect for VR6 Ts..... pending more research obviously!

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by thegtiman on Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:35 am

kevhaywire wrote:...
I've been thinking along similar lines myself, although still from the VAG stable. Can you see any reason why an Audi S4 ECU wouldn't work on a VR6 turbo? I can't Very Happy

I'm talking about the old 2.7 V6 biturbo. It has one throttle, 1 MAF, 2 knock sensors, 1 crank sensor and 1 cam position sensor. Exactly what the VR6 has. The ECU won't know the difference between a 15 deg V6 and 90 deg one. I think there may even be just the one N75 valve covering both turbos, I'll have to check, but even so, if it does run two, the obsolete one can be removed in software Very Happy

I am Mr OE these days. That is an OE V6 turbo engine management system, with wideband as standard, so is perfect for VR6 Ts..... pending more research obviously!

In the same way I could put a Skyline RB25DET or even a RB26DETT JECS ECU on a VW engine and get it to work providing I know what parameters to adjust in the ecu to match it to my requirements. Heck you could even install a Power FC on there for that matter.
A Bosch M2.9 or 3.8.X ECU are good devices on a STD VR6. If you know how to gain access to these modules then you can do whatever you like to the engine i.e turbo, supercharger, cams etc.
A ME7.x system is a bit more complicated as it works on a torque coordinated structure. Yes it has similar components of different spec fitted to match Audi's requirements for the S4 or RS4. It may have an upstream UHEGO as part of its lambda coordination function. But you will have to understand a non public document before you could make a change that would influence such a controller. Or you can buy a full Winols package and start deciphering cal tables by intelligent guess. Thing is why would you want to tranpose such a system on a vehicle that does not require it. Do you need to have torque intervention for cruise control, traction control, haldex control, fail safe and so on? Are you required to pass EU3 emissions and fuel economy targets? Do you have NVH targets that must be meet for an unknown hardware. Must you meet homolagted power and torque curves or implement EOBD. All these plus deliver to the customer a car that feels fun and safe to drive enthusiastically. When you think about there are many firms out there that are flashing some of these devices with "reworked calibrations". De bugging aside are you willing to pay out to have the OE control system running a reflash to someone else's settings. What about live emulation for futher fine tuning. Then the cost. And after all of this a chap with a DTA, Emerald or even MS standalone will still have similar setup that he can make calibration changes much faster and validate live for less hassle.

There reasons why people like me chose the standalone route vs some OE systems.
If this was an S4 vehicle and a daily I would never go to a standalone and would opt for a means to live emulate or buy the very expensive tools to recalibrate to my specs. But an older car like a MK3 Golf, Passat, Corrado or Golf 2 conversion, a standalone or even just the OE system is more than enough.


Last edited by thegtiman on Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:45 am

My colleague is pushing me towards the G400, as a pure learning exercise for my new job role. I see his point too Smile

As far as the S4 ECU is concerned, sounds like a reasonable idea. Does the 2.7 bi-turbot have VVT? What does Vince say about 'mappability'? The only issue I could foresee is getting the knock sensors working correctly. The calibration for them will be totally specific to the 2.7 block, so it may be that you wont be able to use them very easily.

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£300 Corrado 1.8 16v
The good lady wife's Golf VR
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:14 am

i'd love to learn more about OE engine management strategies.
I considered rigging up something to an old digifant ecu to see how it responded to various input signals and conditions.Still might if I ever fix my car lol.
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:39 am

mrbeige wrote:My colleague is pushing me towards the G400, as a pure learning exercise for my new job role. I see his point too Smile

Can't beat a nice bit of learning Very Happy

mrbeige wrote:As far as the S4 ECU is concerned, sounds like a reasonable idea. Does the 2.7 bi-turbot have VVT? What does Vince say about 'mappability'? The only issue I could foresee is getting the knock sensors working correctly. The calibration for them will be totally specific to the 2.7 block, so it may be that you wont be able to use them very easily.

I think the later facelifted one may have, not sure. I need to do look into it more but it was just a passing thought one day, you know how it is!
Mapping won't be an issue and neither will the knock sensors Very Happy
I'll let you know how it works out if I do go for it, although if DTA hurry up and release their DBW controller soon, I probably won't!

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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:26 pm

G400 I/O....
I/O TypePins
Analogue inputs16
Digital inputs4
Quadrature inputs5
Frequency inputs5
Constant current output1
Digital outputs20
PWM outputs17
Stepper outputs10
Injector outputs4
Coil drive outputs2

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The good lady wife's Golf VR
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Re: OE Development ECUs...

Post by mrbeige on Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:47 pm

Also has 1x CAN, 2x HEGO, Crank and Cam with VR or Hall effect, 2x Knock sensor

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