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CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by Yandards on Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:58 am

kevhaywire wrote:Yeah, I think I'll bung it in as it is then and see what it's like!

How do you measure the bores without marking / scratching them? Any good tools you can recommend?

Is dynamic balancing where it's balanced with the clutch attached? Sounds like a good idea to me!

I do think about daily's occasionally but I can't really be bothered with 2 cars tbh! I prefer to get maximum enjoyment from one car Very Happy I can get a lift to work with the missus, so transport is never really an issue!


Basically yes for the dynamic balancing part but not with the clutch fitted as that will wear during its life and may not remain balanced. The idea is you balance all of the rotating parts of the engine as a whole so that you get no extra forces in play during the engines rotation. By carrying out dynamic balancing you remove the in-balance in the engine which in turn means the engine wastes less energy on overcoming those inbalances. Ideally you want to get the bottom end balanced as a job lot, so block, crank, crank pulleys, rods, pistons and flywheel; then look to get the camshafts balanced as well.

I got mine done by a guy up near Stealth, he works out of a old barn complex that are now industrial units, really knowledgable bloke and he was always chatty and keen to show me all the wierd and wonderful stuff he had in the workshop. As a plus he used to balance BARs F1 wheels for them. You only need to give him the bare block and the other bits I mentioned as he will need to strip it down to balance it up - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] If you go to the publications bit there are some really interesting (well I think they are) articles on why proper dynamic balancing is important and ultimately releases more power and torque from an engine.

As for a bore tool, I don't know of any that won't lightly mark the bores, mine was an ebay job but frankly with the way DTIs work it's more to do with the amount of wear on the gear mech over time than anything else that will bugger the accuracy; the really crucial bit is getting the initial setting correct. If you have the block in bits and take the pistons out then new rings and a good hone would be needed anyway.

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Jan 21, 2011 7:27 am

Cheers Yan!

How much does dynamic balancing cost? Sounds like it's quite an involved process! It would be interesting to see just how smooth a 24V can be because it's already noticably smoother than the 12V out of the box!
The 6 tends to get a little coarse at the top of it's rev range, so maybe it would benefit from a fettle on the machines.

If I was to hone the bores, I may as well take the oppurtunity to fit some 81mm drop in low comp 24V pistons! I get quite a good loyalty discount from Schimmel and having seen how well my 12V forged pistons have lasted and the abuse they've withstood, I have no qualms in using them again.

I've seen abrasive honers that look like toilet brushes, and the kind the you used. Which one is best do you reckon? I must admit, the bog brush one looks the easiest to use!


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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by Yandards on Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:27 am

kevhaywire wrote:Cheers Yan!

How much does dynamic balancing cost? Sounds like it's quite an involved process! It would be interesting to see just how smooth a 24V can be because it's already noticably smoother than the 12V out of the box!
The 6 tends to get a little coarse at the top of it's rev range, so maybe it would benefit from a fettle on the machines.

If I was to hone the bores, I may as well take the oppurtunity to fit some 81mm drop in low comp 24V pistons! I get quite a good loyalty discount from Schimmel and having seen how well my 12V forged pistons have lasted and the abuse they've withstood, I have no qualms in using them again.

I've seen abrasive honers that look like toilet brushes, and the kind the you used. Which one is best do you reckon? I must admit, the bog brush one looks the easiest to use!


Mine was about £250 but that included some flywheel lightening, although that was about 6 years ago and was only a 4 pot; I have an invoice for it in the large I don't want to add it up bill pile.

As for honing tools, the bog brush type is better for just honing in some rings, 180gsm honing stones is about right, there are loads of guides on how to hone out there but its all about keeping the bore tool moving up and down the length of the bore and keeping the rotation of tool fairly low < 1000rpm is good.

As for the 24v vs 12v difference, the higher output of the 24v will mean more crankshaft loading, couple that with 10 years worth of engineering advances and modification to the engine package(tighter manufacturing tolerances, more emphasis on material analysis etc) and that will be where the 24v is smoother compared to a 12v. I still say the VR6 block is the first of the modern engines to come out of VW, blueprinting is usually a complete waste of time and aside from wear/faults they all make within a couple of bhp of the book numbers. Compare that to a G60 or a 1.8 16v and you get a much bigger range of numbers - blueprinting a valver is worth the effort and usually brings some big rewards with it.

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by boost panda on Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:36 am

Blueprinting is taking away casting marks / manufacturing webbings etc to bring the dimensions of each component back to it's initial design, isn't it Yan?
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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by Yandards on Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:19 am

boost panda wrote:Blueprinting is taking away casting marks / manufacturing webbings etc to bring the dimensions of each component back to it's initial design, isn't it Yan?

I think it gets twisted a little but I have always viewed blueprinting as reducing the tolerance between manufacturers production process and the intended design dimensions; like I said the VR6 block gets little or no gains from extensive blueprinting work as I think it is produced to a much tighter tolerance due to a more refined production process. 16v and G60s on the other hand frequently show sizeable gains from blueprinting indicating more variation in the production process.

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by boost panda on Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:59 am

Is blue printing something that your regular machine shop can do or is it much more involved?

I've always thought the KR to be underpowered, but as they're bulletproof I happily traded it off.

Do you actually need the blueprints / schematics of an engine to do the work? I'd be very interested in getting the schematics just to do some CAD analysis tbh. Still not done the G60 yet :/
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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:28 am

Yandards wrote:As for honing tools, the bog brush type is better for just honing in some rings, 180gsm honing stones is about right, there are loads of guides on how to hone out there but its all about keeping the bore tool moving up and down the length of the bore and keeping the rotation of tool fairly low < 1000rpm is good.

Thanks Yan, just what I needed to know.

I'm still tempted to fit new big ends, ARP bolts, new rings etc "whilst it's apart", just to help prolong it's life more than anything.

Yandards wrote:As for the 24v vs 12v difference, the higher output of the 24v will mean more crankshaft loading, couple that with 10 years worth of engineering advances and modification to the engine package(tighter manufacturing tolerances, more emphasis on material analysis etc) and that will be where the 24v is smoother compared to a 12v.

Absolutely. People often moan about the modern VAG's using expensive 0-30W Castrol oil, which leaves a nasty brown varnish over all the internal castings, but the engines don't use any of it between services and seem to last forever on it! All down to the finer tolerances and improved manufacturing processes etc.

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:27 am

Hello people, well it's been over a year and well I just can't help it I need to get something going again before I die of bordem but it's not what you think.................................

Decided I really don't need a car!!! What I really need is something to fill my mind but not empty my already empty pockets, so anything VW and turbo is a no no for me. With that in mind I have decided to build a locost (caterham 7 type vehicle) based off of a mk1 mazda mx-5. It will be a bare minimum lightweight summer only road legal track car built from scratch by myself and the hinderance of my 7 year old (who wants to be a racing driver when he grows up, don't we all!). I'll start a new build thread if and when I get a cheap donor locally. First though I need to get that welder sorted! Car should only weigh about 550kg with a 130bhp engine so more than 250 bhp per ton as a starting point!! Very Happy edit oh ok 236bhp/ton but it should be thrilling withno doors roof and my **** 2" off the floor!


Check the links for more details.......

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by Yandards on Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:37 pm

Nice project motor, mx 5 is a better base and easier to source than the mass of Ford based kit cars that are knocking around.

Easy enough to tweak the Mazda powerplant for more go, I bet a set of 256mm brakes will be way more than enough when it weighs that little too.

Looking forward to the updates as you go.

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:16 am

Nice!

I've also been fantasing about building a Caterham for years. I think once I'm finally happy with the Corrado (not sure that will ever happen) I might look into doing one as a weekend car.

The MX5 is such a tidy handler as standard, so using that chassis as a base for a Caterham is a mighty fine and affordable way to do it!

If it wasn't for the MX5's cute little girly dimensions and image, I'd considering doing a BBR turbo conversion on one Laughing


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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:46 am

Yes I've always seen them as cars for girls plus I'd barely fit in one. Apparently the 1.6 v-spec has an LSD and the 1.6 engine is 50kg lighter than the 1.8 annnnnnnnnd they have a CR of just 9.4:1 and they really like turbos Smile)). They can take 250bhp with no internal work or spacergasket!! So that would be nearly 500bhp/ton! Very Happy

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by boost panda on Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:22 pm

so VW + turbo is bad, but mazda + turbo is ok?
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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:08 am

VW + turbo = ££££s

Mazda + turbo = Less ££££s

Very Happy

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:42 am

500kg car 2inches off the floor, built from scratch with no windscreen, wipers, heater, roof, boot, doors, windows, etc + turbo/nos = less ££££s per bhp per ton


Think I might buy a stig helmet though.

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by dirtytorque on Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:43 am

ctwg60 wrote:
Think I might buy a stig helmet though.

And some windolene for the flies. clown
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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:39 am

Nah I'll get some F1 rip off strips!

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

Post by Yandards on Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:13 am

ctwg60 wrote:Nah I'll get some F1 rip off strips!

Classy!

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Re: CTWG60's 24VRT - It will be a long slow (non-existant) build

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