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Winter or summer tuning??

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Winter or summer tuning??

Post by jmc on Mon Jun 29, 2009 1:42 pm

Here's one for you. I had my G60 mapped at Stealth on about the coldest day of the year last winter. I also ran it on the rollers at SRR a couple of days later (when all was still very cold). When I came to run it on the SRR rollers a few weeks ago (after changing my exhaust) it was running very rich. To me this wasn't a huge surprise, but am I right in thinking that given the differences in ambient air temp and pressure this would be reflected in differences in rich or lean AFR readings? If so does that mean a better compromise would be a 'spring' or autumn' tune, as I'm thinking of getting it retuned once I have the 65mm pulley.
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by mrbeige on Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:16 pm

I would expect it to be running 'rich' as the warmer air will be thinner, and thus less of it, yeah. I think you might be right that a spring or autumn tune would be a good compromise, the only problem you m ight get is it running leaner in the winter.

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by junkie on Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:14 pm

Surely thats why you have the air temp sensor so the fueling tables are compensated for the change in air temp.
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by jmc on Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:38 pm

Hmmm, I thought though that when on WOT the ECU falls back on its programmed setting (which in my case was done during nice cold dense air in winter). Warm air is less dense, which is why I was thinking it would have the effect of making it run rich in this nice hot weather.
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by junkie on Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:04 pm

On WOT it ignores most stuff and goes to a map for WOT which by default is richer.

Is it only WOT it does it?

The ECU should be programmed to compensate either way whether its warmer or cooler, also the altitude may have an effect at different air temps, naturally the air is thinner the higher you go and also the warmer it is the less dense it is.
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by mrbeige on Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:14 am

I think might also depend on whether it has a MAF or MAP. MAF will be able to adjust for pressure as it measures the Mass of air passing through it, where as a MAP will only measure the manifold pressure. As far as the altitude adjustment goes, does the G60 management have a barometric pressure sensor? I would suspect not, although, if it has a MAF it doesn't need one.

To be fair, I think I'd rather it ran rich than lean at any point Smile

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:30 am

JMC - You are precisely the kind of guy who would benefit from and enjoy tuning a standalone management Very Happy

You've demonstrated you are totally committed to your car and are very keen on extracting peak performance from it, and accept very few compromises, therefore I think you should take plunge personally Cool

All you need is wideband controlled closed loop and it will maintain the target AFRs regardless of ambient temperature. As far as I understand it, the G60 management is very basic and flawed in some respects.

The advantage of a standalone is can switch maps as you suggested and it won't cost you a few hundred quid every time you want to make some map changes. The initial purchase price and setup can be quite high, but for someone like you I think it would be a good investment.

In terms of air temp, you're right, summer air has less oxygen in it, so engines that can't compensate automatically (and sounds like yours doesn't) will run rich. The good old days of tuning carbs for each season Laughing

I think it was Boyle's law that discovered it, but the standard engine managment tune for it is a 3% reduction in fuel for every 10 deg C increase in air temperature. And that's air seen at the intake air sensor, not ambient air temp, but hot air outside = hot air inside the engine though, so it does work.

Anyway, release that engine of yours from the stranglehold of Digipants!!

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by jmc on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:10 am

The G60 has a MAP not a MAF sensor, and as far as I am aware does not have an ambient pressure sensor either.

As you say Kev the G60 system is very basic and flawed.

6 months ago I would have agreed with you and I did think about standalone after th initial woes I had with getting the Digipants tuned properly. However at the moment it is more of a daily driver for me than a project car (sorry to say but true).

Going standalone what sort of cost are we looking at?? I know this a how long is a piece of string question, but based on me having someone set this up for me (hell I feel dirty asking that in here - 'having someone set it up for me', especially after reading what has been done in the project section on here).
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:24 am

Mine is also a daily driver and I have no trouble with a standalone Very Happy
It's not until you own and use one regularly do you realise how liberated you are as a car modifier, even if it's just simple things like cold start fuelling to get it to fire up quicker or slower, you can do it, in minutes and FOC Very Happy

There are so many Standalones to choose from but as you only need 4 injector drivers, the costs come down for you and as it's a MAP based engine anyway, it's not difficult to wire up or configure either.

Forget Motec and the like. They're greedy bastards. So instead we'll be looking at the DTA S60 / Emerald end of the market and both are more than capable of running your engine optimally. It's all down to budget really. If you don't want sequential or coil on plugs, you could even use a DTA S40 which is a few hundred quid IIRC.

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by mrbeige on Tue Jun 30, 2009 5:47 am

Don't forget your budget Megasquirt. Rob has used it in anger on his 8v and got it running well, but DTA or Emerald have more capability than MS, and I'd imagine the calibration application is much more user friendly.

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:46 am

I'm thinking Emerald or DTA S60 running sequential, full time closed loop, MAP based load etc would do wonders for the G60 and another benefit is you can chuck the silly distributor in the bin, which always was a nuiscance on G60s. High power coils for a better burn Very Happy

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by jmc on Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:36 am

Yeah I was wondering Meagsquirt, as I am 'fairly' competent with a soldering iron, however these days I think I would get more out of the programming than the building side of things.

Funnily enough I have just been on the DTA website and had a look at the S60.

Have you worked with them before - is there a DTA for Dummies knocking around, as I know nothing about this....
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:21 am

I have the DTA S80 in my car and it's simplicity itself. Dead easy to use.

As with all Standalones, one of the biggest battles is learning the chosen brand's terminology. They all refer to the same things differently, just to be awkward and stupid. One reason I like the DTA and Emerald is they are easy to understand from a beginner's perspective and both have fairly good manuals and help files. If you understand engines, you'll have no trouble. If you do go DTA, I am more than happy to assist with the wiring and give you a crash course in programming it Very Happy

If you go Squirt or Emerald or anything else, we can certainly help with what numbers to put in where etc.....

One thing I forgot to ask, does the G60 have a crank sensor, or is it all dizzy controlled?

If it doesn't, it's not too much hassle to install a toothed wheel on the crank pulley and a hall sender. The hall sender in the dizzy could be used for sequential cam timing too possibly, but otherwise a magnet on the cam pulley and another hall sender aren't too much aggro either.

All fun and games!

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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by jmc on Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:05 am

Thanks for the offer Kev - I spoke with DTA yesterday, and they also thought an S60 would be the right one to go with. They pointed me in the direction of a chap near Warwick who "has done a few VW's". Funny how widely known Vince is. I'm going to give him a bell and see what would be involved as well.

The cost of the S60 was a bit of a shock - £750 plus vat. So I get the feeling I might have to save up for a bit before this happens.
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Re: Winter or summer tuning??

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:18 am

jmc wrote:They pointed me in the direction of a chap near Warwick who "has done a few VW's". Funny how widely known Vince is.

Like you wouldn't believe Very Happy
Vince has mapped a few high power G60s in his time!

jmc wrote:The cost of the S60 was a bit of a shock - £750 plus vat. So I get the feeling I might have to save up for a bit before this happens.

Ouch. Shop around mate, I paid £800 for my S80 inc VAT!

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