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Eaton chargers...

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:50 am

kevhaywire wrote:
dukest wrote:does he come on here? i know he shies away from the CF because he thinks people would take his technical responses as slights on their knowledge, surely here would be a better place to pick his brains?! Smile

Oh please..... let's not start with with that nonsense. It's refreshing being on here to escape that crap. If he's scared of conflict, he won't come on here either because he and I don't get on.
I don't think that was directed at anyone specifically on CF, but the reason Tom and I started OU was because a lot of people are very simple minded and will just say 'why are you doing that, why don't you just stick a 20vT in instead', so I don't think that was what was intended, we're all here for the same reason. Engineering talk. In fact, I think OU could be the QI of the tuning 'scene'! Laughing And that is what it's all about at the end of the day.

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:09 am

mrbeige wrote:
kevhaywire wrote:
dukest wrote:does he come on here? i know he shies away from the CF because he thinks people would take his technical responses as slights on their knowledge, surely here would be a better place to pick his brains?! Smile

Oh please..... let's not start with with that nonsense. It's refreshing being on here to escape that crap. If he's scared of conflict, he won't come on here either because he and I don't get on.
I don't think that was directed at anyone specifically on CF, but the reason Tom and I started OU was because a lot of people are very simple minded and will just say 'why are you doing that, why don't you just stick a 20vT in instead', so I don't think that was what was intended, we're all here for the same reason. Engineering talk. In fact, I think OU could be the QI of the tuning 'scene'! Laughing And that is what it's all about at the end of the day.

And I love it! Very Happy

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:43 am

Me too Very Happy

The OU is indeed the new QI Laughing

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by boost panda on Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:15 am

So, doe that make Toad or Biege the new Stephen Fry?

do we get funny buzzers too?
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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by Flusted on Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:35 am

mini m45's are too small for 1.8 engines simple. they are ok on 1.3/1.4s.

And my mrs screams at me if i say "hoover" instead of vacuum cleaner, or "biro", instead of pen lol
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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:09 am

Anyone have the link for that marine engine cut-away demo of an eaton engine. Engine name began with a "B" arrrhhhgg it's doing my head in.

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:40 am

ctwg60 wrote:Anyone have the link for that marine engine cut-away demo of an eaton engine. Engine name began with a "B" arrrhhhgg it's doing my head in.
Brunswick??

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:21 am

mrbeige wrote:
ctwg60 wrote:Anyone have the link for that marine engine cut-away demo of an eaton engine. Engine name began with a "B" arrrhhhgg it's doing my head in.
Brunswick??

No it was beroni or brunel or something.

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Sat Jul 18, 2009 11:51 am

So then, what do you think would be required to fit a Heaton M90 to a VR, in a Golf? This is the list so far....

M90 Eaton
Spacer gasket
Chargecooler
Pipework
Standard ECU remapped
Larger injectors
Rising rate FPR

Could you get away with a remap? Vortech chargers are fitted with just a remap aren't they?

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:31 am

You really need to get up to Stealth and have a look at Tom's.

It's a lot more work than you realise!

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:46 am

kevhaywire wrote:You really need to get up to Stealth and have a look at Tom's.

It's a lot more work than you realise!
Hmmmm, some pictures would be good. Is Tom, that Larkinboy chap?

Ok, I can imagine that the fabrication work is quite substantial i.e., bracket to mount the charger, boost piping etc, but theoretically speaking, is it as straightforward as a Vortech/Rotrex install? I can't imagine it'd be too disimilar??

I'm just trying to figure out if it is way out of my ability.





The fact it's way out of my financial grasp at the mo is irrevelant Laughing

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:19 am

Yeah, Larkinboy, that's him! Hasn't he got a build thread on the VR6OC?

I'd say it's a lot more involved than the Vortech / Rotrex and you do need to fabricate a lot of stuff. His also runs twin throttles and all sorts of things!
You also get an unbelievable amount of heat hit you in the face when you open the bonnet. LOADS more than my turbo does!

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:49 am

Why would you need twin throttles? Odd... What management is he using? His build thread on VR6OC doesn't give a lot away.

I can imagine it produces a fair amount of heat, but then, with good intake charge cooling, would that necessarily be a problem?

How does the the heat compare to your turbot when it's not go it's 'jacket' on?

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:38 am

Because it's a big positive displacement charger and even at idle it's trying to shove loads of air into the engine, which upsets the MAF and also makes a lot of noise. Mercedes employ a similar system on their S/C'd cars. The second throttle is just after the air filter and restricts air to the charger at idle. He's sync'd the two throttles together quite cleverly using 1 cable.

The fact he's using a MAF should answer the managment question Very Happy

No comparison on the heat. Lift my bonnet up after a run and it's no worse than a stock VR6, perhaps cooler as most of the heat is at the back away from your face.

Open his bonnet and the whole intake is massively hot and it's like stepping out of an airplane into 35 deg heat, it really takes you by surprise!

I don't use a jacket anymore. I was told by a reliable Source that GTR ball bearing turbos don't like them. I made my own heatshield and after a hard run at idle, the turbo and manifold under the sheild are 500 deg C. The temp above the sheild is 80-100 deg, so I'm really pleased with how well that worked out!.

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:09 am

kevhaywire wrote:Because it's a big positive displacement charger and even at idle it's trying to shove loads of air into the engine, which upsets the MAF and also makes a lot of noise. Mercedes employ a similar system on their S/C'd cars. The second throttle is just after the air filter and restricts air to the charger at idle. He's sync'd the two throttles together quite cleverly using 1 cable.
Funnily enough I was going to write in previous post "Because it is a positive displacement charger, would it need a throttle to vent off the boost at idle?"! I wish I'd trust my gut feeling more often! I'd be a millionaire by now if I did! I had fantastic idea for a Digital book about 3 years ago, so you download a book of t'interweb straight on to a book shaped LCD screen(s)....needless to say some bugger has recently released said electronic good....I digress somewhat.... study

Do the two throttles open and close at the same point and at the same rate then?

kevhaywire wrote:The fact he's using a MAF should answer the managment question Very Happy
Quite. Smile

kevhaywire wrote:No comparison on the heat. Lift my bonnet up after a run and it's no worse than a stock VR6, perhaps cooler as most of the heat is at the back away from your face.

Open his bonnet and the whole intake is massively hot and it's like stepping out of an airplane into 35 deg heat, it really takes you by surprise!

Do you know if that has a detrimental effect on intake charge temps? I would expect so. He's using a standard inlet, though (unless he's changed his setup), so I wonder if a short runner with some sort of heat shield between it and charger might be a good idea? I suppose you'd then be directing the heat onto the radiator. scratch

Perhaps the restiction of air into the charger could increase the heat developed by it, as it's working harder? The heat produced also explains why I've seen a lot of Eatons sold on the Bay of e with manifolds with integrated chargecoolers

How do Merc keep things cool then? They must suffer from similar problems?

Also, the chargers have a very long drive shaft from pulley to the charger itself. Is that removeable/interchangeable, between different Eatons, as the M90s I've seen just look too long to feasibly fit along the front of the engine bay?

kevhaywire wrote:I don't use a jacket anymore. I was told by a reliable Source that GTR ball bearing turbos don't like them. I made my own heatshield and after a hard run at idle, the turbo and manifold under the sheild are 500 deg C. The temp above the sheild is 80-100 deg, so I'm really pleased with how well that worked out!.
Nice. Don't think I've seen any pics of that......you need to update your build thread Whistle

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:00 am

mrbeige wrote:Funnily enough I was going to write in previous post "Because it is a positive displacement charger, would it need a throttle to vent off the boost at idle?"! I wish I'd trust my gut feeling more often! I'd be a millionaire by now if I did! I had fantastic idea for a Digital book about 3 years ago, so you download a book of t'interweb straight on to a book shaped LCD screen(s)....needless to say some bugger has recently released said electronic good....I digress somewhat.... study

You should defo trust your instincts more mate! It's the fear of looking silly on the forums I guess, not that we (the oddunit) would humiliate people for getting something wrong anyway!!? I'm the same. I'll do something to the VRT and then ponder afterwards whether it was right or not, and then change it. But I was right the first time. Very annoying! Very Happy

mrbeige wrote:Do the two throttles open and close at the same point and at the same rate then?

They appeared to open at the same time etc, but the throttle for the charger inlet looked bigger than the main engine throttle, so the flow rates will have been different. It was all in the experimental stage still when I saw it, so he may have revised a few things since.

mrbeige wrote:He's using a standard inlet, though (unless he's changed his setup), so I wonder if a short runner with some sort of heat shield between it and charger might be a good idea? I suppose you'd then be directing the heat onto the radiator. scratch

The trouble with the heaton is it sits right behind the radiator on the block, under the intake. So it's soaking up heat from the block, the radiator and it's own self generated heat. It probably ran cool at speed, but at slow speeds it gets hot! He had a good chargecooler though (home made) which stopped the engine seeing the massively high charge temps.

mrbeige wrote:How do Merc keep things cool then? They must suffer from similar problems?

The smaller C180-200-230 Kompressor type cars run low boost and they're mounted quite low down and in the air path. On the V8 S/Cs, they have the intergrated chargecoolers as you say, and probably some sort of discreet venting system.

Forced induction fans are obsessed with ultra low intake temps, but so long as it's 35-40 deg C or below, that's fine Very Happy

mrbeige wrote:Also, the chargers have a very long drive shaft from pulley to the charger itself. Is that removeable/interchangeable, between different Eatons, as the M90s I've seen just look too long to feasibly fit along the front of the engine bay?

Dunno dude, haven't seen a charger off a merc on the bench as it were. Tom made up some brackets and pulleys etc to make it fit on his.

mrbeige wrote:. Nice. Don't think I've seen any pics of that......you need to update your build thread Whistle

I just have Very Happy It's a shameless cut and paste from the VR6OC though, so won't flow like a build done over time, but hopefully you'll get the idea!

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:38 am

kevhaywire wrote:You should defo trust your instincts more mate! It's the fear of looking silly on the forums I guess, not that we (the oddunit) would humiliate people for getting something wrong anyway!!? I'm the same.
No, I'm sure the OddUnit members wouldn't, just used to other forums I guess
kevhaywire wrote:The trouble with the heaton is it sits right behind the radiator on the block, under the intake. So it's soaking up heat from the block, the radiator and it's own self generated heat. It probably ran cool at speed, but at slow speeds it gets hot! He had a good chargecooler though (home made) which stopped the engine seeing the massively high charge temps.
I wonder if you could mist water in the Eaton to try and keep things more in check? I suppose that sticking water into a compressor probably isn't the best plan. Eatons have an oil cooling system don't they?
kevhaywire wrote:The smaller C180-200-230 Kompressor type cars run low boost and they're mounted quite low down and in the air path. On the V8 S/Cs, they have the intergrated chargecoolers as you say, and probably some sort of discreet venting system.

Forced induction fans are obsessed with ultra low intake temps, but so long as it's 35-40 deg C or below, that's fine Very Happy
I'd imagine that ever normally aspirated engines can have intake temps of 40degC quite easily when under heat soak. I know that Ford have seen 50+ degC on the heat soak tests on their diesel engined Focus

kevhaywire wrote:Dunno dude, haven't seen a charger off a merc on the bench as it were. Tom made up some brackets and pulleys etc to make it fit on his.
I had a bit of a scout about on American eBay, and it's possible to interchange the 'snouts' of the chargers. It's a bit like having different turbine flanges on different makes of turbo. It depends on application. On a big V8, it might need really long snout so that the charger is nearer the back of the engine, but the pulley is at the end of the block.

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by mrbeige on Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:58 pm

Been thinking a little more about this. The Golf has A/C and so a compressor that might well be in the way. Perhaps you could move the compressor to the power steering pump position, and then get an electric pump for the power steering, much like the ones found on an MR2. Furthermore, you could use a clutch on the charger. I'm sure the likes of a Toyota Corolla T-sport runs a clutch on the charger. Perhaps its just controlled with a PWM signal from the ECU, so that a duty cycle of ~0% at idle, so you wouldn't need a secondary throttle, or would you still need that secondary throttle to bypass the charger that isn't rotating? Hmmmm.

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:51 am

Yeah, get electric versions of the water and PAS pumps and you'll be laughing, tonnes of room.

Don't think you need the complication of a clutch tbh. Audi use the Eaton TVS blower on their V6 which is geared for max boost all the time, then a simple PID control as a function of TPS either routes all the boost back into the charger, or lets it into the engine. That method does needs a secondary throttle or valve to do the recirculation though, but the advantage is you have a lot of boost available at low revs. I'm sure you could do something similar.

You would need a hefty alternator to drive the electric pumps though.....

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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by boost panda on Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:11 am

I was thinking your turbo would be happier without a jacket, but as I know zero about turbos (the name is irony!) I thought I would keep quiet.

low intake charge temps increase the imep (indicated mean effective pressure) which is the pressure on the piston crown with which the piston is shoved back down towards crank. Just done a big report on that, was a killer!

Also, I have access to the SAE Digital Library and tons of other databases (like the ones you find when using Google but they want you to pay $20 to download a pdf) through Uni, and would be happy to dig through looking for tech papers etc.

SAE have all their papers going back to 1963 online now, a few TBytes I'd guess!

/hijack.
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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by kevhaywire on Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:02 am

Yeah how come you are a boost panda on here and Boost Monkey on the Corrado forum? Laughing

Jackets are a typical snake oil product mate. You'll never see OEs using them and I generally try and follow their lead.


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Re: Eaton chargers...

Post by boost panda on Thu Nov 25, 2010 4:17 am

I genuinely can't remember. It's better than VR6 changing it to Knob Me Sooty though Laughing

Yeah, that was my thinking too. Keeping heat out of other parts is good, but keeping all that heat in the turbo can't be.
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