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OE engine management VS Standalone

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:19 am

nemesis360 wrote:As stu has said above the point I was trying to make (although not very clear) was that standalones can be made to work very well but it takes a lot of setup time etc etc, Motronic is already mapped quite well...obviously If your going for big power its useless but as Dave has proved it can work well for mild boost.

I think youll be the first to agree Kev that standalones take a while to get right, but when they do the are brilliant.

I'm not having a pop at anyone! Very Happy I like this forum because it allows us tech heads to air our views without "General chat" kind of people turning it into bickering.

Standalones can take a while to get right for sure, but it depends on which one you use. Some of them will self tune, which is exactly what the OE ECU does.

Motronic takes a lot more work to get right, LOADS more! We're forcing it to do something it wasn't designed to do. Obviously an ECU is just a computer and doesn't care or know about boost, it's just interpreting signals and converting them to fuel duty cycles......but the way Motronic operates, makes doing that more difficult than with a standalone. But it can work very well. Vince spent weeks and weeks mapping one OBD2 converted Corrado to run a turbo and it's the best map I've ever seen, WAY WAY better than C2s. And I can say that safely on here cheers
And likewise, he can get a DTA equally smooth.

As I said at the start, it's about picking the tool for the job Good work

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:30 am

It's Toms fault he put

"VS" in the title.
Only kiddin.

The good thing about this site is that there are so many projects on the go in it.
All of different types.
Different cars different methods of FI etc.
I welcome an exchange of ideas.
I didn't mean to appear to belittle anyones ideas.
Just putting my own across.

Smile
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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by nemesis360 on Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:41 am

kevhaywire wrote:
I'm not having a pop at anyone! Very Happy

Id didnt think you were, I posted the shed comment after a few beers last night so I thought Id clarify what I meant Very Happy

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by JNLRacing on Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:54 am

Let me clarify my factory ECU statement cost millions to develop. It's not the hardware that cost millions to develop it is the software and mapping time spend to give you faultless smooth running from cold and hot start time and time again, nice idle maps etc....

The time spend on mapping an aftermarket ECU to get the same sort of smoothness is a lot and costs reflect it. Sometimes depending on application it is easier to start with an ECU that has had the most difficult bit done.

In the same token yes the cossie ECU wont do a 5/6 cyl. The VR6 ECU is pretty pants and a nightmare to make a turbo run nice. From experience I also know that emerald ECU's dont like running VR6's either, they have a real problem with the callibration on the throttle body.

Realistically when one chooses an ECU you need to look at the application and how you want it to perform. Next you want to look at the person that is mapping the car. If they have 1000's of hrs experience with a particular ECU you are sometimes better of buying that ECU over another in order to attain the best results from that particular mapper.

Like Kevhaywire said it's picking the right tool for the job which ultimatelly comes down to the right mapper for the job as they'll determine the end result.

We currently have this problem with an engine in the workshop. As we have headed into unknown territory for a particular type of engine with regards to internals, headflow, turbo spec the lot. We now have the problem as to who we get to map it as no one has had experience with the configuration in question. Once we have decided as to who is mapping the engine then we start looking at which ECU to buy on recommendation of the mapper. So we have been using different cars as test beds to get an idea of different mapping abilities of different people we know befoe we are ready to dive in as there is over £16k of engine at stake and no money available to rebuild it if it boost spikes or runs lean.

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:19 am

Yeah definitely agreed on picking an ECU which has local expertise, or even if it's remapping the standard ECU. Having to trailer a car half way across the country to get mapped is expensive and a royal pain in the butt.

I read some examples of that in PPC's Walker's Workshop. It must be soul destroying trailering a car over to Norfolk, only for it to blow on the dyno Embarassed Although that's usually always caused by poor installation and / or under engineering.

Agreed, OE's have to get the mapping right so that any old duffer can drive the car, and drive it anywhere.....into the Sahara, into Siberia and up the Himilayas and back again. It's hard to replicate on a standalone, but not impossible.

One advantage some OE ECUs have is Mass air flow, which automatically accounts for air density and barometric pressure. And actually, this is why remapped OE ECUs are [sometimes] easier to map, because all the hard work Bosch put into it is already there. All the mapper has to do is tweak the existing figures to suit the mods....plus an expensive emulator and WinOLS software though.

I have big respect for someone who can wire in a standalone and get it running all by themselves, and running well. The job of 100+ people and limitless budget, done by 1 person for less than a grand..... definitely a cigar moment when she fires up for the first time Laughing

Anyway, it can be done..... I found it extremely easy to do just that with a DTA S80. Agreed, Allan, the main techie at DTA, is a miserable ****, but there's an unofficial DTA forum to hand, so thankfully having to speak to him is a rare occurence.

Anyway, DTA have made life for us tuners very easy with the S series.

You can easily get the car running well enough to drive to a local workshop, and then get all the timing and fuelling to make peak torque done under load on the dyno. With lambda target and closed loop, it will tune itself.

Agreed on the Emerald. I looked at it and deemed it a bit too basic for my needs. I do like Dave Walker though. He's a lot more helpful and free giving of information than many other tuners / ECU producers.

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:45 am

I keep forgetting about this, but it seems like a nice solution. A standalone inside the original VW ECU case -

Plug-n-Play ECU for the following models:

Audi 5 cylinder AAN / 3B
Corrado VR6 / Passat VR6 1992+
MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0 and VR6 1993-1995
MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0 and VR6 1996-1199
MK4 Golf / Jetta / Audi 1.8T and VR6 1999+ (Uses Harness adapter)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by nemesis360 on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:30 am

Thats a good idea, no wiring and easily reversible if you need to swap back to standard

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by mrbeige on Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:34 am

nemesis360 wrote:Thats a good idea, no wiring and easily reversible if you need to swap back to standard
Assuming the pin-out is the same, but I'd expect so What a Face

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by JNLRacing on Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:50 am

kevhaywire wrote:I keep forgetting about this, but it seems like a nice solution. A standalone inside the original VW ECU case -

Plug-n-Play ECU for the following models:

Audi 5 cylinder AAN / 3B
Corrado VR6 / Passat VR6 1992+
MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0 and VR6 1993-1995
MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0 and VR6 1996-1199
MK4 Golf / Jetta / Audi 1.8T and VR6 1999+ (Uses Harness adapter)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Without me having to read pages of forum stuff I asume you have already read through it? If so are they selling a plug and play ECU that bolts into the original car with the ability to remap or are they selling a plug and play eCU to bolt the engine into another car?

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by mrbeige on Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:58 am

JNLRacing wrote:
kevhaywire wrote:I keep forgetting about this, but it seems like a nice solution. A standalone inside the original VW ECU case -

Plug-n-Play ECU for the following models:

Audi 5 cylinder AAN / 3B
Corrado VR6 / Passat VR6 1992+
MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0 and VR6 1993-1995
MK3 Golf / Jetta 2.0 and VR6 1996-1199
MK4 Golf / Jetta / Audi 1.8T and VR6 1999+ (Uses Harness adapter)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Without me having to read pages of forum stuff I asume you have already read through it? If so are they selling a plug and play ECU that bolts into the original car with the ability to remap or are they selling a plug and play eCU to bolt the engine into another car?

Taken from the guys website, it appears it's a plug and play unit to allow you to tune in the existing vehicle, with the existing harness..

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:Call it whatever you want, finally there is a full Plug and Play ECU solution for VW/Audi owners! LugTronic allows you to be up and running with a stand alone ECU in less than 30 minutes! Plugs into your stock harness, and mounts into the stock location.

It is $1400 though affraid

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Re: OE engine management VS Standalone

Post by Tomo dj on Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:36 pm

although that im completly a newbie with MS at the mo, it does contain a hell load of parameters, launch control, boost control, nitros control, loads of outputs to control other things, but the wording and help functions are over my head, but i like the idea of instant adjustment from in side the car, ive now managed to load a 3d VE1 table and set fuel mixtures and instant change to the engine, ive increased my KPA over boost cut off to allow better drive threw the gears, just cant wait untill toyotec can come back next week hopfully and tyrn off my rev limts { 5500} and tune this puppy to its max.

toyotecs even running a boosted turbo golf, with 35 mpg on MS, thats awsome

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