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Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by kevhaywire on Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:05 am

Cool, I do like the ProRace.

RE turbo choice. It's one of those subjects you can discuss until you're blue in the face, but only your bum dyno and general pleasure receptors know if it's the right choice.

With my GT30s, I felt they kicked in a little too soon and then the fun was over. It was what I wanted initially, but the lack of traction over winter was a real bind. People often boast of lighting up the tyres at XYZ speeds in XYZ gear, but trust me, it's bloody irritating!

The 35R is just fat, for want of a better expression. It's prescence can be felt everywhere in the rev range and doesn't spool much slower than the GT30, but the main meat of the boost hits hardest further up the revs compared to the GT30.

In hindsight this is more my bag. Especially for FWD where you need some momentum in the car before applying the gas. As James said, the 35R hits your harder for longer, but you will love the difference any turbo makes initially Laughing

It won't be until you get more involved with it that you will define your tastes in boost delivery, and change turbo if necessary.

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by nemesis360 on Thu Oct 30, 2008 2:12 pm

Im looking forward to seeing the progress on this project bud, I was on the verge of doing a 24v turbo when my "free" recon 12v came up Smile

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:20 pm

nemesis360 wrote:Im looking forward to seeing the progress on this project bud, I was on the verge of doing a 24v turbo when my "free" recon 12v came up Smile

I can see why it people have a hard choice between sticking with the 12V or swapping over to the 24V, just look at the thread on the corrado forum! Laughing and my original plan was to stick with the 12V. It wasn't until Tom and me started stripping it down to do the cams, chains etc that I was thinking about a rebuild. Then the 24V came along at a great price and I just could resist trying to do something away from the norm.

Cheers for the thoughts on the turbo Kev, having been in yours I've always been thinking the GT35 was the one for me as I like the idea of having the power across a wide range. I think I need a chat with someone who's done the turbo on the 24V to see what their experience is with it all.

On another note, been hunting around as I've decided not to use the spacer gasket method I was going to use but go for proper forged/lower comp pistons.
Fourseasons tuning do a selection of wossner items which look good but what comp ratio do I go for???
And spturbo do a set of uprated head bolts for the 24V, but I need to find rod bolts from somewhere....

All good fun and most importantly I'm actually starting to learn about it all and understand some of it. cheers
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:24 pm

Good work dude, I think forged pistons could be the way to do instead of the spacer. Means safer use of boost I think. You'll be needing an engine stand then?? Wink

You thought about what exhaust manifold to go for? Tubular equal length or just a cast jobbie?

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:26 pm

Oh and post up your findings as you find them dude, we're all listening Wink

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by junkie on Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:45 pm

mic_VR wrote:

Then the 24V came along at a great price and I just could resist trying to do something away from the norm.

I think I need a chat with someone who's done the turbo on the 24V to see what their experience is with it all.

I've decided not to use the spacer gasket method I was going to use but go for proper forged/lower comp pistons.

Oh dear, i can see a pattern emerging here, its going to be a bloody expensive do when all is said and done, stop talking to Kev right now, he is spending money you dont have.....
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:36 am

mrbeige wrote:, we're all listening Wink

Thanks Dr Phil! Laughing

Exhaust manifold will probably be a tubular job, seems rude to have a metalwork fabricator in the family and not use him. Plus it's the same problem I've come across for a lot of the stuff in that there isn't a lot of bolt on parts out there for the 2.8 24v, loads for the 12v and R32 but I'm not sure what will fit and what won't.

junkie wrote:Oh dear, i can see a pattern emerging here, its going to be a bloody expensive do when all is said and done, stop talking to Kev right now, he is spending money you dont have.....

Hah! Yeah Kev has given me some great ideas, but I'm also thinking I don't want to take it apart again when I want a little more boost. Wish I'd never started looking at Bill Schimmel's site though! Laughing

Must admit I didn't realise how much trickier it's going to be with the 24v, but hopefully it'll be something a little different.

Update's over the weekend hopefully, eh Mr B? Wink
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:06 am

Schimmel sell everything you'll need Mic, but not all of it is on their website yet. He's got 500+ more parts to upload but doesn't have much time for website maintenance at the moment.

Now this will flood your knickers, ATP have just released a 24V T manifold for FWD applications Very Happy - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Intake - I would go with the HGP clone you can get, Jon at stealth can source it. I have heard too many reports of the stock plastic one blowing apart with as little as 15psi boost.

Pistons - I would go 8.5:1 as it allows for future boost increases and I would use Wossner too Very Happy

I think the GT35R is a nicer turbo for 24V due to the head's extra flow. You can wind that motor round to 8K (with SP cams and springs Very Happy ) and it'll still be making boost if you go with a 1.06 turbine housing!

Or if you want good spool and good pull up to 7000rpm, the 0.82 housing will work well.

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:02 am

kevhaywire wrote:Now this will flood your knickers, ATP have just released a 24V T manifold for FWD applications - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Bloody hell Kev, you know how to make a man go moist! Laughing Look like a lovely bit of kit, and very OEM+.

I did think BIll would have most things, just need to get on the phone and ring him. Although the missus and I have just finalised our honeymoon (may '09) and for the first 10 days we're travelling down the east coast of america, starting in Boston,........ so it'd be rude not to pop in and see him personally! Just haven't told her that yet....

Right let me get this correct, 1.06 will spool slower but make more power in the top end whereas the 0.82 will come in quicker? Is it the 0.82 you've got Kev?
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:40 am

Yeah that manifold is great. It sits everything perfectly for RHD FWD 24V applications and you can use stock manifold aswell for low boost applications.

Yeah Bill's in Warminster, 2 hours south of New York. VR6Boy on the Corrado Forum just got back from Schimmel actually....he took 65Kgs of parts through the airport, LOL! Virgin Atlantic charged him $175 for that tho Laughing You'll love NY if you've not been before, awesome place!

Yep, the 1.06 makes full boost at 4000rpm with a 3" exhaust on a 2.8 12V. I'd expect around the same, perhaps 3800 on your 2.8 24V.

I have the 0.82, yep, and that makes full boost at 3500rpm, but peak torque doesn't occur until higher up due to the 2.5" exhaust, cams and big valve head.

If you don't anticipate holding boost past 5000rpm frequently, go with the 0.82.

It's amazing how little you do actually use full throttle though.

According to my S80's diagnostics, the engine has run for 78 hours since I installed the ECU this summer.

During those 78 hours, time above 75% RPM is 11 minutes 13 seconds. Time above 75% TPS is 2 mins 10 sec, and time above 75% RPM *and* TPS is 25 seconds, LOL!

So full boost action is actually quite a rare occurance anyway, so a mid size turbine housing is probably better for a daily car.

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by junkie on Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:36 pm

Kev your records your actually scared of the power lol.
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:30 pm

GT40 is it then? Wink

On a serious note though, are you planning on using standard internals then for now and then going forged items later?

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:43 pm

GT40..... Mwahahahahaha!!!! the POWER!!!!!!

Nah I think GT40 might be a touch big, and like Dave said it'd be nice if it spools within a few mins.. Laughing

Initially a spacer was my first idea, then I changed and thought forged items....... now I've gone back to spacer as I'm only aiming for 350-400bhp, and the engine I've gone has barely been run in so with new arp bolts it should be good.
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Fri Jan 16, 2009 2:39 pm

ARP head and Rod bolts is it sir?

So what's your plan as far as inlet manifolds go? Do you think Sensible's mate might be worth having a chat with?

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:07 am

I think Dave and I were talking about it just before you got there on Thursday. My idea is (if Dave is happy to) acquire a mk2 short runner off Dave and modify it so it'll mate up to the 24v head.

This should be fairly straight forward as C2 Motorsports produce head flanges to use when building your own short runner Linky!!!
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:34 am

Excellent. I'd imagine it'd be much cheaper than the Schimmel type products. Are you thinking to go mechanical throttle or electronic? Mechanical would probably be much easier and would you just use a standard VR throttle, or do you reckon you might be able to use an OBD2 throttle as I'm pretty sure they have the idle control integrated into them??

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:52 am

Well that's an interesting one as I'm not 100% I can't decide on whether to run the DBW or not.

From a intake/idle control I'd be happier if I could get rid of the unreliable ISV and MAF's (although I don't know it the mk4 MAF's are better)

Anyone got any recommendations?
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:07 am

As far as the idle control goes, the later semi-electronic throttles adjust the idle by moving the end stop of the throttle when closed, but then the just work like a normal mechanical throttle. DBW have a more serious failure mode. You don't really want it to stick open, so you have to make sure you have all the safeguards in place that you'd find in a car with a DBW throttle fitted. I'm pretty sure that Stan's 24v didn't. I'm sure I wouldn't want to do that. If you were using the standard management then I'd probably go DBW, but you plan to go DTA, so it'd be mechanical all the way...but if possible with the idle control integrated into it.

As far as MAF is concerned, I'm sure I read that DTA doesn't support it, so TPS and MAP it is....IIRC

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:49 am

So, any more progress/thoughts/decisions then, Mic?

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by kevhaywire on Thu Mar 26, 2009 3:22 am

DBW all the way Very Happy.

- No throttle cable passing over the turbo / downpipe to get burned up
- No idle valve
- Instant cruise control ability Very Happy
- Programmable "stop" for when your missus drives it, limit it to 50% opening!
- Hot and cold start "throttle blips"
- Downshift "throttle blips"
Etc etc

Interesting project this one, since I have exactly the same engine aswell, so it will be good to bounce ideas off eachother.

What's stopping me at the moment is the intake. Spoke to Bill about it and he said he's already modified one of his 12V SRIs using one of them 24V DIY flanges and it only just fits in a MK3 Golf, forget the Corrado he said.
Now, the Schimmel SRI is quite compact with a relatively small plenum volume. You wouldn't want smaller than that imo, especially on good flowing motor like the 24V. So unless you customise the radiator and slam panel arrangements, you'll struggle to get any 24V SRI to fit.

I wonder if the sexy HPA one will fit, looks brilliant. You'll never replicate the unequal runners (cheaply) as neatly as that yourself imo. Plus it can also be used NA in the meantime Very Happy - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I was considering using the DTA on mine, especially as they are working on a DBW controller for it. Bill said that by dumping the 12V and putting a 24V in it's place, and using exactly the same DTA map that the 12V used, the difference in smoothness, power and refinement - just from the mechanical benefits of the 24V alone - is massive!!

Vince has mapped the ME7 ECU successfully for turbos though, he did a map for a guy in Israel over the phone practically, and his MK4 2.8 turbo (GT35R) makes 600hp using the stock ECU.

Difficult decision really. As much as I like the DTA, it's not as good as the Bosch ME7 overall, but I would miss the tinkering ability.

Oh and DBW does indeed have a safety net.

There's a pot on the pedal and a pot on the throttle. The 2 have to match (within a user selectable tolerance) at all times. If they don't for what ever reason, the ECU assumes a failure and closes the throttle. Simple and clever.

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:27 am

mrbeige wrote:So, any more progress/thoughts/decisions then, Mic?

You know how it's been recently mate, barely had time to drive the car as it is with everything else on my plate at the moment! Laughing
But the project is still a go, just won't be starting for real on it until start of June.

Kevhaywire wrote:What's stopping me at the moment is the intake. Spoke to Bill about it and he said he's already modified one of his 12V SRIs using one of them 24V DIY flanges and it only just fits in a MK3 Golf, forget the Corrado he said.
Now, the Schimmel SRI is quite compact with a relatively small plenum volume. You wouldn't want smaller than that imo, especially on good flowing motor like the 24V. So unless you customise the radiator and slam panel arrangements, you'll struggle to get any 24V SRI to fit.

This is exactly the bit i'm stuck on at the moment mate. I've had a quick chat with Dave and he came to look at the engine/standard inlet manifold and he took a load of pics and now has the std inlet manifold to have a bit of a play with to see what can be done with the sizing/space issues. But I know he's pretty busy as well at the moment so I'm not sure what his thoughts are yet. Hoping to catch up with him at the CCGB AGM in a few weeks.

As for engine management, although I've not actually spoken to anyone about it I must admit I've kind of come to the same conclusion as you in that using the standard ME7 ECU with a remap might be my best option. Basically I've got everything I need to run the engine as it comes in the mk4, and I'm half tempted to just swap the whole lot over as it'll then run the DBW/VVT without having to mess with it. And I suspect VW spent a fair amount of time working on getting it as good as possible so why not use it. Plus I've been looking on the DTA forums and a lot of it is way over my head so I'm unlikely to tweak it much once it's been mapped anyway.

The only thing is that I'm in the dark about how the remapping works? Would it retain the mk4 MAF and idles control? How would the cold start be sorted (i've seen this being a problem on a lot of remapped VR's running superchargers)?

People thoughts/opinions welcomed as usual.
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mrbeige on Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:57 am

mic_VR wrote:You know how it's been recently mate, barely had time to drive the car as it is with everything else on my plate at the moment! Laughing
...I think I know how that feels Laughing Wink

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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by dirtytorque on Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:15 am

If u did go down the DTA route you could hand off the majority of the mapping to someone else but learn enough to adjust the cold start settings yourself.

I like to play devils advocate.Twisted Evil

In regards to reading forum manuals
There is only so much you will take in.
You will learn alot as you go.Obviously in the beginning you need to learn enough so that you don't make expensive time consuming mistakes.
saying that though if you really have no interest in or you want to be up and running quickly and smoothly then just go for plug and play solution.
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by mic_VR on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:09 pm

Right guys, been having a think about what I really want from my project and although I like the idea of being able to tweek here and there I'm not sure I won't mess it up.

Before I completely dismiss the idea of keeping the standard management I thought I'd look at what other options I had.
Obviously a custom remap is one solution or a revo style remap. From an ease point of view I'd rather go for something designed for the job rather than fudge my way through it.

Best thing I've found so far is the C2 Motorsports stuff. They do a full ECU and fuel system up grade designed for the 24V (including 4" MAF housing, fuel pump, lines, injectors, etc) rated to 400bhp for about $1400. Looks and sounds pretty good. Anyone got any views on it? used their software etc? Think I'm on the right lines etc?
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

Post by Toad on Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:46 pm

James (Corrado-VR6Turbo) uses the OBDII C2 software on his VRT, and I know a few others use it too, think Marcus has it... Bst ask them...
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Re: Mincy, because only a turbo will do now!

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