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JMC's 1.9l G60

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:32 pm

Swapped the chip back to my previous one (Vince sent me through a copy, as I forgot to bring it back with me - doh). Car is running as it was before, so it seems to have cured everything - even running rich at idle which is eally weird.

Going to run it for a few days and see if I lose the black sooty deposits on the spark plugs. If I do I have a map which is half way between the old and new ones to try. Fingers crossed that will work.
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:12 am

Bit of an update here (as I haven't done much for a while). Swapping the chip back to my original one from January did indeed cure all my running issues. The plugs went back to their nice grey/tan colour, the car felt livelier and more responsive, and overall better to drive. It's very odd but the map I had done in Apr/May ended up affecting the idle - dog rough, and dropped the idle speed. I thought it would be just the WOT settings that would have needed changing and that Vince wouldn't have changed the idle settings.

I have just put in the 'half way between the old and new map' chip so will see how that goes. It feels ok so far, but I have not had chance to put it through its paces properly yet. Hopefully more to report when I have had chance.
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by dirtytorque on Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:50 am

what are you shooting for if you don't mind me asking.
I don't mean that in a rude way.
Iron out niggles,with fueling.A bit more power.(Aren't we all Smile )
So the Stealth MAP was good power wise but spoilt your idle a bit?

I could may be wrong but I'm not so sure that with Digifant you can adjust fueling in one area without any effect to other areas of the MAP.

I'd love to know more about how digifant works.
I mean how it really works not just what the blue temp sender is for.
Smile
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by ctwg60 on Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:04 pm

Well I've proved that your idle fueling will affect fueling throughout the rev range inc. Full throttle acceleration. Even Wayne was a bit surprised at that! We gave the car FT on the RR with and without the Lambda and we saw vastly different EGT's and AFR.

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:35 am

dirtytorque wrote:what are you shooting for if you don't mind me asking.
I don't mean that in a rude way.
Iron out niggles,with fueling.A bit more power.(Aren't we all Smile )
So the Stealth MAP was good power wise but spoilt your idle a bit?

I could may be wrong but I'm not so sure that with Digifant you can adjust fueling in one area without any effect to other areas of the MAP.

I'd love to know more about how digifant works.
I mean how it really works not just what the blue temp sender is for.
Smile

To be honest I'm after an all rounder. I do alot of motorway miles, and it has to not be running rich when not accelerating but sitting at 70 (of course officer). It's strange though - every other map (and it has had a few over the years) has been able to idle properly, and in fact so did Stealths 1st one for me. Which was why I very surprised when I had one that didn't. In fact the road behaviour did not match up to the RR results after a bhit of time with the car - it bogged down heavily in the mid range. Now I am running a map which is half way between the old and new one it feels better, but it is definately still slightly rich.

Given the map is done on both RPM and manifold pressure then surely it should be tunable for both good fueling at idle and under load? Or am I reading the maps wrong...
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:37 am

ctwg60 wrote:Well I've proved that your idle fueling will affect fueling throughout the rev range inc. Full throttle acceleration. Even Wayne was a bit surprised at that! We gave the car FT on the RR with and without the Lambda and we saw vastly different EGT's and AFR.

Hmm that is wierd - I though under WOT the lambda was ignored?
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:31 am

I know it's wierd. It seems you can change the fueling throughout the reve range by adjusting the copot, why don't you try it you have an AFR. See if you can get better economy on the motorway!

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:00 am

Oh my lord the things you learm, I was told CO pot would only affect idle fuelling and would not have an impact of anything else. My AFR is narrow band unfortunately, so I would have to go by spark plug colours rather than anything else.

I also think I need to adjust my idle screw in the throttle body - when it gets warm it's idling around 600 and struggling.
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by mrbeige on Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:37 am

You should get a wideband in the Jonathan, that would give you a bit more info of what is going on. They aren't majorly expensive.

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:57 am

mrbeige wrote:You should get a wideband in the Jonathan, that would give you a bit more info of what is going on. They aren't majorly expensive.

Yeah did have one for a while and never got round to fitting it Embarassed Presumably I can get an idea of 'rich' or 'lean' rom plug colours - thats what I've been doing so far...
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by mrbeige on Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:06 am

Indeed, but you wont know when you are going rich or lean, juat that you are mostly rich or mostly lean??

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:23 am

Yeah plug reading tells as good a story as any. Dark grey on the bottom ring (top of the theads) and a cardboard sort of colour on the tip and ceramic insulator indicates a healthy burn Very Happy. All black or all white shows over rich and over lean conditions.

As for wideband kits, I'm rather liking the look of this puppy and nicely priced at £185 - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And being made by Stack, you know it's going to be good and reliable Very Happy

Doesn't your company have something to do with Stack Stu? Someone told me they work for them....ah.....VWDeviant on the forum....that's him. Actually, he did say to me he could get their products cheaper....hmmmmm Cool

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by mrbeige on Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:10 am

Nah, nothing to do with Stack, although we have got a couple of current projects doing instrument cluster stuff for two of the OEMs.

[aside]Interestingly, was discussing widebands with one of my colleagues, and it seems that all wideband sensors 'drift' over time[/aside]

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:37 am

Got the plots from the Stealth Rolling road session at the weekend. This was running a map which was intermediate between my one from January (old exhaust, no ISV reroute) and the new one which was just too rich. Don't read anything into the 2 lines, there were just 2 runs on the day.
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All in all it looks good, I just can't help but think there is a bit more in there somewhere. On the 1st dyno run it spat flames out of the exhaust at the end, which suggests it's still overly rich to me (plus the plugs are still pretty sooty, although not as bad as they were). Also when Vince mapped it, although he played with the map, he didn't think there was any reason to play with the Vernier, he just left it at zero. When he did Berno's 2l one, he did the same thing until Berno pestered him on it at which point it gained 26bhp Rolling Eyes Ho hum...
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:40 am

Yes I would imagine there would be a bit more to come. Mines definitely not rich but like yours spat flames. Maybe something to do with the schrick cam or valve float I thought. I do think the flames where after the Throttle was closed though so it could be unburnt fuel on overrun igniting in the hot exhaust.

It's interesting we've both gone at big power G60s from entirely different ways but the results seem very similar.

We had a play with the cam timing at Waynes when mine was mapped and stock timing seemed to work best. Berno's made a big difference I think because of the stupidly high CR and retarded ignition timing.


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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:56 am

The flames came on liftoff on over run as a few of the boosted engines did.
I would of imagine at those boost pressures and rpm you'd be running a bit on the rich side for insurance.
Some data logging or at least a wideband with a guage is the only way to know for sure.
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:35 am

ctwg60 wrote:Yes I would imagine there would be a bit more to come. Mines definitely not rich but like yours spat flames. Maybe something to do with the schrick cam or valve float I thought. I do think the flames where after the Throttle was closed though so it could be unburnt fuel on overrun igniting in the hot exhaust.

It's interesting we've both gone at big power G60s from entirely different ways but the results seem very similar.

We had a play with the cam timing at Waynes when mine was mapped and stock timing seemed to work best. Berno's made a big difference I think because of the stupidly high CR and retarded ignition timing.

Yeah, it was on the over run so it will have been a bit of fuel being dumped and catching light.

Our works seems to be an example of covnergent evolution - as you say 2 very different approaches resulting in similar performance. Are you running a 65mm pulley now in yours then?

I'd forgotten that Bernos was a bit weird, but that probably explains alot.

Good to meet you at the weekend BTW - very tidy G60 Very Happy
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:36 am

dirtytorque wrote:The flames came on liftoff on over run as a few of the boosted engines did.
I would of imagine at those boost pressures and rpm you'd be running a bit on the rich side for insurance.
Some data logging or at least a wideband with a guage is the only way to know for sure.

I know, I know I should use wideband, however I have taken to reading the plugs these days. Also I need to get me EGT in and running, that will help too....
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by mrbeige on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:49 am

Yeah Jon, get a bl00dy wideband.....it'll save you time taking those plugs out all the time....

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:55 am

mrbeige wrote:Yeah Jon, get a bl00dy wideband.....it'll save you time taking those plugs out all the time....

Laughing Laughing been so long now I can't remember why I got rid of the one I had ready to put in. Goldfish memory strikes again...
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:59 am

jmc wrote:

Yeah, it was on the over run so it will have been a bit of fuel being dumped and catching light.

Our works seems to be an example of covnergent evolution - as you say 2 very different approaches resulting in similar performance. Are you running a 65mm pulley now in yours then?

I'd forgotten that Bernos was a bit weird, but that probably explains alot.

Good to meet you at the weekend BTW - very tidy G60 Very Happy

yes 65mm but a stock charger. Are you 65mm also? Your being kind about my car, the body work is nasty. I forgot to take a closer look at yours, liked the bumper grill though! Very Happy And the black wheels.

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:10 pm

Yep, I'm running a 65mm, and the charger is stage 4 (or Jabbas version of stage 4). G-werks said it wasn't worth taking it further.

Don't worry I wasn't looking at the body of yours - more of an engine person myself Laughing

The bumper was done at Southam Bodies only a few miles from Stealth, with the aim of getting more air to the rad and intercooler (the bumper bracket has been modified quite a bit too). To be honest I am not sure it made much difference, but it's something different.
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:58 pm

So what's next? Weren't you going to do NOS?

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by jmc on Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:03 pm

ctwg60 wrote:So what's next? Weren't you going to do NOS?

Still am - need to get off my fat ass and install it (it's been occupying my living room for the last year) Laughing . I've discovered a direct correllation between having a girlfriend and losing my tinkering weekends...
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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:16 pm

jmc wrote: I've discovered a direct correllation between having a girlfriend and losing my tinkering weekends...

YEP! Very Happy

You've got forged pistons have you not, so you can give it some! Very Happy Give it a 100 shot! Laughing

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Re: JMC's 1.9l G60

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