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Maximising weight distribution for handling

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by mrbeige on Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:12 am

ROFL! I think I wrote that before really thinking about it!!

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by boost panda on Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:41 am

davidwort wrote:most talk tends to be of the front wishbones, but I found it interesting that one mk4 golf in Performance VW had had major rear end fabrication to prevent the rear wheels moving forward in the arch as the rear beam goes past horizontal and the wheel is pulled forward as the beam rotates on it's mountings.

How soft was the suspension on that Golf, or how far did the wheel actually move? Sounds like a bit of "put in some good sounding theory for the mag" kind of stuff to me, but then I have 0 experience of Mk4s so maybe they're really loose at the back.
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by davidwort on Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:39 pm

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but the mk4's do look odd when substantially lowered as the rear wheel looks quite far forward in the arch, must be the different setup of the rear torsion beam mountings, they're sort of at an angle to the body instead of perpendicular like the mk2//3/corrado
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just found the article p70 Performance VW Nov 08
most mk4 owners hate the way the rear wheels pull forward in the rear arches when the car is lowered. Once the rear suspension arm is past the horizontal position it completes its arc of travel and pulls the rear wheel in towards the front edge of the rear arch
the answer: weld in the rear floor of an S3, it's a longer wheelbase so when lowered the wheel sits right in the arch Laughing
Ah, the guy who built this is a friend of Jeroen Dik (JD Engineeering) and the car is an s3 engine with a Garrett GT3082 AND a G60 charger Shocked
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by junkie on Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:51 pm

And 500bhp
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by junkie on Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:51 pm

Oh and 3 ECU and throttle bodies.
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by boost panda on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:52 am

Good work on the engine side of things, but welding in a complete new rear floor just to get a wheel to sit right in the arch is a massive bodge in my eyes.

Why spend all that money under the bonnet, just to bodge everything under the boot!

Also, isn't the G60 a little small for a 20v engine? God knows that head will flow FAR more than a PG would.

I guess this is why I will never understand new cars! Mad
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Apr 08, 2009 4:08 am

boost panda wrote:Good work on the engine side of things, but welding in a complete new rear floor just to get a wheel to sit right in the arch is a massive bodge in my eyes.

Why spend all that money under the bonnet, just to bodge everything under the boot!

Also, isn't the G60 a little small for a 20v engine? God knows that head will flow FAR more than a PG would.

I guess this is why I will never understand new cars! Mad

in this application it is just being used to provide boost low down,the turbo will tickle the head further up.
Anyway its a man experiment/novelty engine really i rekon.The guy obviously has money to burn.
None of these home brew projects are ever ideal.
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:02 am

boost panda wrote:Good work on the engine side of things, but welding in a complete new rear floor just to get a wheel to sit right in the arch is a massive bodge in my eyes.

Why spend all that money under the bonnet, just to bodge everything under the boot!

I was thinking the same. Seems a little extreme for the sake of being low, but at least the guy thought laterally around the problem and did it properly Cool

boost panda wrote:Also, isn't the G60 a little small for a 20v engine? God knows that head will flow FAR more than a PG would.

I guess this is why I will never understand new cars! Mad

I'm sure I've seen a G60 20V before, many moons ago. Works quite well by all accounts. Yeah the 1.8T flows pretty well but you have to remember the cotton reel turbos VW saw fit to adorn them with..... tiny little feckers!!

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by James H on Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:52 pm

Mike Truluck (Jabbasport) built a 4wd mk1 Scirocco in '98 with a 20v G60 in it!! Twisted Evil
It's been sat in his garage for the last 10 years, just gathering dust! Sad
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by Toad on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:16 pm

There was a G60 with 20v head on at E38 2 years ago.
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by mrbeige on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:18 pm

Toad wrote:There was a G60 with 20v head on at E38 2 years ago.
That white one?

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by boost panda on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:25 pm

so the other question really is, is the G60 a little big for the PG?

Or is it one of those scalable things? Hmmm....
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by mrbeige on Wed Apr 08, 2009 3:34 pm

I think we're getting to the point of a separate discussion here Wink

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by kevhaywire on Thu Apr 09, 2009 1:39 am

James H wrote:Mike Truluck (Jabbasport) built a 4wd mk1 Scirocco in '98 with a 20v G60 in it!! Twisted Evil
It's been sat in his garage for the last 10 years, just gathering dust! Sad

Mr Truluck, that's a name from the past! The grandfather of Glader tuning Cool

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by boost panda on Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:05 am

mrbeige wrote:I think we're getting to the point of a separate discussion here Wink

As I was retiring for the eve, I thought "hang on, that was the handling thread wasn't it..."


Oops Embarassed
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by KipVR on Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:34 am

kevhaywire wrote:
ctwg60 wrote:Most people think lowered suspension is great when they fit it, what they fail to realise is that it's replacing 20 year old knackered stuff!

Yep! Any cheap old coilover kit is better than 20 yr old knackered stuff! Very Happy Well, for the 5 minutes the cheap kit will last at least Laughing

Mic_VR wrote:So what's the answer then Kev? Is it possible to either raise the position of the top mount and lower the wishbones, or if you want it to really handle without major mods is it a case of getting a good set of coilovers but be a bit more sensible on the actual level of drop-age?

What Beigey posted! You need to drop the wishbone and tie rods down to match the reduction in ride height, thereby maintaining the proper roll centre Smile But that stuff won't last long on a daily road car. The rose joints you'll get 2K out of, tops. You can get rubber covers for them, but that type of bearing just isn't designed to last a long time.

The better, more permanent solution would be to fit the running gear from the R32 or TT. They run low and have revised hubs and wishbones to suit. That way you can use normal ball joints and bushes and maintain the correct WB angle, which will last for years.

Or the other, less fashionable solution would be to stick to the standard ride height. The VR6 rides as high as it does for a reason. That reason being VW know more about Roll centres than owners of trailored show queen specials Very Happy


Interested in the R32 setup, Does it all just bolt up? It just wouldn't be that easy surely? I've never looked at a Mk4 up close....
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:01 am

I'm not sure tbh, I think it's mainly the bearing housings and wishbones that are different. I know someone on the CF played around with S3 hubs and bearing housings etc, and they bolted on.

VW still seem to like running the wishbones at parallel on their modern cars too, so doesn't leave much room for lowering at all.

If you ever follow a BMW Mini, the rear WB angle is well and truly pointing down and Minis handle well. Should be the same at the front aswell!

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by boost panda on Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:18 am

It depends what you want your suspension to do, or more precisely what geometry you want to run.
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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by kevhaywire on Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:43 am

It should move up and down and fast B roads without hitting the stops Laughing

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Re: Maximising weight distribution for handling

Post by boost panda on Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:03 am

Ah that's easy!
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