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DTA for Dummies

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:35 am

dirtytorque wrote:is your target a/f picture cut in half?

Probably, I've noticed this style of forum cuts the image off if it's too wide!

dirtytorque wrote:How much boost do you run in that there engine?
More than 140 kpa i'm guessing Smile

Currently around 12psi, not a huge amount!

dirtytorque wrote:i'm Interested to see how rich your running at the top end of the scale. I'm nosey like that.

12.8 AF up to 3 psi, 12.5 AF the rest of the way and drops to 12AF at full throttle Very Happy

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:20 am

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I think this is my current setup?
I found it on my work laptop.
I might splash on a bit more fuel at top?!!
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:07 am

Where does your boost come in strongest?

3500 rpm @ 205KPA (15 psi boost) might run better at 12.5 AF.

Generally I like to see 13.5 AF at 100KPA, and 12.5 AF as soon as boost starts and then drop it 12AF at the very top end to keep the valves cool.

Engines are different though so if yours feels good as it is, don't fix it! Very Happy

A leaner mix will burn faster and produce more power, but EGTs will soar very quickly!

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:43 am

kevhaywire wrote:Where does your boost come in strongest?

3500 rpm @ 205KPA (15 psi boost) might run better at 12.5 AF.

Generally I like to see 13.5 AF at 100KPA, and 12.5 AF as soon as boost starts and then drop it 12AF at the very top end to keep the valves cool.

Engines are different though so if yours feels good as it is, don't fix it! Very Happy

A leaner mix will burn faster and produce more power, but EGTs will soar very quickly!

I'll try and find a log file.
In fact I'll do a new one tonight.
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:11 am

I downloaded my life afr from my car last night.
I did think it looked a little lean too tbh.
If anything I tend to lean towards a slightly richer mixture especially in the boost areas.
The charger can't put out 205 kpa btw that line is just there so that MS can interpolate between the cells obviously.
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:19 am

Looks OK actually. Perhaps try 13.5 AF at 100KPA though, should give you a bit more economy Very Happy

20KPA should normally be 20+ AF to switch the injectors off for over run.

Sorry, not trying to tell you how to suck eggs Very Happy

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:26 am

Thanks i'll bear those things in mind.
I'm taking the engine out at the weekend now as I want to go 16v.
I was reasonably happy with the performance but the MPG maybe could have been better.
I did use the fuel cut parameter in MS on deceleration to lean out the mixture although I'm pretty sure that when I did see 20's the car would buck.

Anyway i'll have a new engine to play with soon so hopefully the map will be better second time around.
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:56 am

Decided to use DTA for my engine and have started reading the manual today. Only on page 7 and already really impressed with the crank trigger oscilloscope function. Smile Looks very useful especially for diagnostics etc.

EDIT but can someone explain injector dead time for me and why it's important for compensation maps? scratch

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:50 am

You'll have to wait on "the wire"
Sounds like the amount of time injector is on per cycle??????
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by mrbeige on Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:13 am

Would it not be the time the injector is energised, but not open yet??

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:51 am

yarse.
Battery Compensation (Injector Dead Time)
Up to Glossary

This Definition applies to: Any version.

There is always a delay between an injector being energised and the injector actually opening. Likewise, there is a small delay between the injector being de-energised and the injector closing. Because the opening time is considerably longer than the closing time, the overall result is that less fuel will flow for a given pulse width than would be expected with an 'ideal' injector'

To compensate for this PC Link increases the injector pulse widths to compensate for this 'dead-time'. The dead-time for a given injector is a function of the battery voltage, differential fuel pressure and the type of injector control (saturation or peak and hold). A typical dead-time at 3Bar differential fuel pressure and 14 volts is just under 1ms (ms = millisecond = 1 thousandth of a second).

In applications with a linear 1:1 fuel pressure regulator (ie not a rising rate regulator), the differential fuel pressure (difference between manifold pressure and fuel pressure) will be constant. Therefore the only variable that can change, thus affecting the injector dead time, is the battery voltage (this can change with electrical load - e.g. when the air conditioning or lights are switched on - and sometimes engine speed).

Without correction, the changes in dead time will cause the engine to run lean when the voltage drops. If the Injector Voltage Correction is properly setup then changes in the battery voltage will not affect the air/fuel ratio.

The injector dead-time table in PC Link allows the dead-time for different battery voltages to be entered. The values represent the dead-time in milliseconds. These should increase with falling system voltage. Dead time values for a particular injector can be entered directly or a preset Injector Type selected.

I 4got about this thread.

Why not move it into the EFI section Beige one?!! Cool
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by mrbeige on Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:50 pm

Your wish is my command, oh dirty one Laughing

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:59 pm

Well that makes things clearer. It basically enables the ECU to be more accurate in it's fueling. I think!

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:11 am

I wouldn't worry too much about injector dead time initially. You only get the true benefits if you have the actual IDT for your specific injector and enter them into the "Battery Compensation" table.

In a nutshell, it works in the DTA environment by adding the IDT to the base fuel map *after* all other compensations have been applied and as said already, it is indeed the time it takes for an injector valve to open, inject fuel and close again. These times vary with voltage, fuel pressure and of course, injector brand and model.

I bought my injectors from the rather knowledagble Mr Paul Yaw ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and they come with a 9 sheet Excel Workbook packed with flow and IDT data etc! He flow tests with petrol to get the proper flow rate, rather than the mineral spirits most ASNU testers use, which is more viscose than petrol.

If anyone wants to see an example xls file, PM me your email address!

What he doesn't know about injectors really isn't worth knowing!

Anyway, leave the IDT in General engine settings and the Batt comps to zero for now until you get the proper data for your injectors.

Which model did you get? S60? Cool

I'm looking forward to their Drive By Wire controller. I can delete the throttle cable and idle valve in one fell swoop and enjoy mappable throttle response, superior idle control and cruise control to name but a few benefits Very Happy

You could do the same on your 60. Just need a common or garden £40 DBW pedal from your dealer and for your engine, perhaps a 1.8T DBW throttle and you're off!

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:08 am

I haven't bought a system yet still doing all the research reading manuals and playing around with software. DBW sound like a great advantage for custom engines. I'd need to have some sort of turbo boost bleed valve to run DBW. Hmm! I've actually got some Dead time values for my current injectors from another piece of mapping software! Very Happy

Mr Paul Yaw sounds a good man to know. There's no input for an EGT probe with DTA is there?

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Thu Sep 17, 2009 8:17 am

Sure thing, it pays to do some research because the software is something you will be using very frequently initially Laughing

I've looked at them all nearly and I have to say, DTA's software layout and functionality is the best i've seen so far. I'm far from biased as I was going to going balls out and get a Motec, but their software is terrible and you have to pay them every time you want a bit of wiring information or to unlock a feature.

I'd take Emerald's interface as a second choice though, but it's just a tad too basic for me. DTA's diagnostic screen and logging is incredibly comprehensive and the whole package just has a reliable feel about it.

At the end of the day it depends if you prefer to work in numbers or percentages Wink

In my experience, IDT works best when cold cranking because injector response time slows right down as voltage falls. For example, my Densos are 0.77ms IDT @ 12 to 14V, but at 8V it's 2.5ms, and these are quick injectors! Very Happy

Another advantage of IDT is said to be less of a slump in idle rpm as the fans kick in, but I've found that not to be the case. What solves that is a kick of extra ignition advance, or "Fan uplift" in DTA speak. 10 deg BTDC does the job and makes the fan intervention seamless to the driver.

No, there's no dedicated EGT input on the DTA as such, that's just a label as it's a standard 0-5V analogue input like most other inputs, such as Wideband, Knock, MAP, TPS, Water temp, Air temp etc etc.

This lovely EGT gauge has an analogue output - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

With that you can assign any one of the spare analogue inputs to be an EGT failsafe and pull timing and increase fuel accordingly Very Happy

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:06 pm

Yep just trying to absorb it all and align the info to by application. I don't know if you've heard of N_i_r_a more of a swedish saab/volvo unit. The software is quite something the manual is very good to, It's one I've been recommended but DTA seems like the safest bet for support and information. I was looking at the S40 the other day and for my uses it would be fine for the money although it's limited it still has the same hardware and software behind it. Maybe a low risk get your feet wet affair, Emerald as you say it just seems too easy, too basic!

Can you comment on reliability of the DTA units. I'm talking about having to reset them, hardware failure, map data corruption, fluctuations, etc.

Here's a grab from the N_i_r_a engine setup wizard. Really good comprehensive descriptions and solutions in the left column! This shows the IDT for the injectors I plan on using. Cool!

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Have you used EGT with DTA yet? I like EGT, solid and simple diagnostic information, I think I have the same gauge and sensor as you have. Excellent cheap bit of kit. The N_i_r_a system has a dedicated setup and particular probe that they sell. Audi item mind, although they suggest they have re-calibrated the electronics of them.

I'm spelling N_i_r_a like I am to avoid search engines, the company seem a bit paranoid about the distribution of their manual and software. They sent me my own personal copy which has my name at the bottom of every page! Suspect

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:26 am

ctwg60 wrote:the company seem a bit paranoid about the distribution of their manual and software.

Why though?! What are they trying to hide, or what are they trying to prevent rivals from copying?! Some firms in the motor industry are really paranoid and touchy Laughing

PECTEL are the same, but their systems cost several £1000 and their software was DOS based last time I looked Laughing

Anyway, I hadn't heard of NIRA before no, thanks for the info! Their offerings look very nice indeed but other than one or two nifty features (such as the 2 way fuelling - TPS/MAP + VEff), I can't see anything remarkable there that you don't get with other systems.
Without the seeing the software (and I can't see your screen shot if it's photobucket hosted) there's no way of predicting how it will work out in every day life.
It probably is very good though, just a shame I can't see it!!

You're right about the DTA being good for support. It's popular in the UK and therefore there's a good user base and also a dedicate forum (http://dtaforum.psycode.com/) and email and phone support from DTA is good also, plus DTA sell all the relevant accessories.

I've had the P8 Pro and now and S80 and I've not had any reliability issues at all with either of them, and it's a daily car as you know Laughing As with any electronic devices, problems with standalones are nearly always caused by user error and / or shoddy installation and wiring. I'm not aware of any failed ECUs through normal use.

I haven't used EGT with the DTA yet as I haven't felt the need to. The gauge is right in front of me and is the one I look at most, so I can soon detect an issue. The temps I'm seeing are expected for the setup so I'm happy with that Very Happy
OEs use EGT back up (hence your reference to an Audi probe) because they run lambda 1 for as long as possible to keep the cat converters happy, and as you say, EGT is a simple, no nonsense, reliable measurement. It's also extremely quick aswell, waaaaaaay quicker than knock and lambda, so it's the perfect defense mechanism. They whack in a percentage of fuel against certain temps, starting at 850C I believe. You can always spot when a 1.8T is driven hard, remapped modded ones that is, watch the black smoke pour out of the tail pipe Laughing

The other good thing about DTA's S series is it's regularly updated with new firmware and software and they do listen to customer suggestions and complaints.

I'm not delibreately trying to push you down the DTA route btw, but it may seem that way Laughing

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Sep 18, 2009 6:22 am

Agree with all the above. If you want to see the software or manual just email them expressing interest and they should send out a copy.

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I think it has to be DTA for all the above reasons. Hmmm. Probably go with the S80 so I'm setup for the VRT I plan on doing one day!!! Laughing

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by dirtytorque on Fri Sep 18, 2009 7:50 am

ctwg60 wrote:
I think it has to be DTA for all the above reasons. Hmmm. Probably go with the S80 so I'm setup for the VRT I plan on doing one day!!! Laughing



CtWG60 + VRT = Divorce.
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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by mrbeige on Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:16 am

dirtytorque wrote:
ctwg60 wrote:
I think it has to be DTA for all the above reasons. Hmmm. Probably go with the S80 so I'm setup for the VRT I plan on doing one day!!! Laughing



CtWG60 + VRT = Divorce.
lol!

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Fri Sep 18, 2009 8:50 am

The S80 is a lovely unit and 30% smaller now. Shame they did that just after I bought mine! Mad

If you do go VRT, all it would take is emailing a map over to you and you'd be up and running! That's the main benefit of a group of people using the same brand of ECU Very Happy

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:26 am

Very Happy Believe me I'm only considering doing it cos you run one as a daily and your happy to share knowledge and experience. I saw a thread with your latest engine bay shot the other day and i just have to do it. I'll be pretty much done with 4 pot G60's in a year or two's time anyhow, and i get bored easy! Think I'll buy a cheap golf VR to steal the engine from. Anyway that's another thread. Cool

Oh erm Nira has some sort of anti lag flat shift thingy-majig, something about holding the boost on the turbo side of the throttle valve or something.

EDIT: here's a basic description! quite interesting!

Anti Lag System (ALS) maintains boost pressure during shifts and
when letting off on the gas.
Flat Shift – reduces engine torque to enable quick gear shifts.

6.10Flat Shift
The Flat Shift function makes it possible to shift gear while maintaining WOT,
this is done by lowering the torque output when NIRA i3+ reads a signal
indicating that the driver changes gear. This is a highly advanced function
that can lead to transmission damages if the mapping and installation aren’t
performed in a correct way.
The function is activated with a digital input connected to Flatshift Switch in,
on=gnd. If an analog sensor is used the signal must be digitalized. The switch
should be mounted in such a way that it changes state from “1” to “0” when
activated. Most sequential gearboxes has a built in sensor. It’s also possible
to mount a switch that is activated when the gearstick is moved or the clutch
engaged.
When a gearchange is initiated the torque should be reduced quickly. The
torque reduction is obtained in two ways.

The ignition point is retarded x degrees

Ignitions or injections are blocked, this is named cut throughout this
document. The flag ALS/FlatShift Cut Mode sets which of them that
will be blocked. Note that the ALS function uses the same mode.

A combination of the two is also possible and often used.
The torque reduction is maintained during x ms or as long as the switch is
activated, this is described under Activation time 6.10.3. FlatShift Mode
controls whether the torque reduction is maintained for a given time or as
long as the switch is activated
To make the return to normal mode smoother the cut and ignition angle is
gradually phased back to normal. This part is named ramp up. During the
ramp up period the ignition is phased back to normal, i.e. Ignition Main
Table sets the ignition angle, and the “cut” goes to zero which means that
no ignitions/injections are blocked.
In order to make it possible to activate the function the rpm and throttle
position must be above certain values. This is done to prevent the engine
from stalling when changing gear at low rpm or give to much engine brake
while downshifting. The parameters Min Active RPM and Min Active Throttle
set the thresholds.

6.8 ALS – response system
ALS is used to maintain the boost pressure when the throttle angle is small.
This is done by increasing the airflow into the manifold, retarding ignition and
cutting ignition or fuel injection.
To increase the airflow, a separate solenoid is often used to increase the
throttle angle approximately 15%. This is only done whenever ALS is active,
which is when at least one of the values in ALS Ign Retard Table or ALS Cut
Percent Table is greater than zero.

6.8.1 ALS Cut Mode
ALS Limit Cut Mode determines if ignition or fuel injection will be cut.

6.8.2 ALS Max Active Time
ALS Max Active Time determines how long ALS can be activated. Note that
ALS is active only if at least one of the values in the Cut or Retard tables is
non-zero.
Once ALS has timed out, whenever the TPS exceeds the ALS Throttle Active
value, ALS will be re-activated.
Setting ALS Max Active Time to zero turns off this function.
6.8.3 ALS Throttle Active
ALS Throttle Active determines the TPS value which must be exceeded in
order to (re)activate ALS.
6.8.4 ALS Throttle Hyst
ALS Throttle Hyst determines the increase, in %, of TPS, which causes ALS to
be turned off regardless of the values in ALS Cut Percent Table and ALS Ing
Retard Table.
Once the TPS exceeds ALS Throttle Active, ALS will be re-activated again.
Setting ALS Throttle Hyst to zero turns off this function.

6.8.5 ALS Maximum Exhaust Gas Temperature
Max exhaust gas temp while ALS is active. For this function to work an EGTC
unit must be connected to NIRA i3+. See section 3.8.
If the exhaust gas temp exceeds the value in ALS Maximum Exhaust Gas
Temperature, ALS is turned off.
Once the TPS exceeds ALS Throttle Active, ALS will be re-activated again.
6.8.6 ALS Idle RPM Cut In
This RPM limit comes into play if ALS gets deactivated due to throttle
hysteresis or the exhaust gas temp was too high or if the ALS max active time
has been exceeded.
This prevents excessively high engine rpm if the throttle is open, the ignition
retarded and cut returns to zero.
Only the fuel cut is used since it results in lower exhaust temperature, which
is one of the main reasons for deactivating ALS.
This function uses the rpm and cut mode, as well as the RPM Limit Range and
RPM Limit Min Cut.
6.8.7 ALS Idle Throttle Lo
If the throttle position is less than ALS Idle Throttle Lo, the max engine speed
is the same as ALS Idle RPM Cut In.
6.8.8 ALS Idle Throttle Hi
If the throttle position is greater than ALS Idle Throttle Hi, the max engine
speed is the same as RPM Limit Cut In.
If the throttle is between ALS Idle Throttle Lo and ALS Idle Throttle Hi, the
max engine speed increases linearly from ALS Idle RPM Cut In to RPM Limit
Cut In.
6.8.9 ALS Cut Percent Table
This table contains the percentage of ignition/fuel injection events which will
be cut whenever ALS is active.

6.8.10 ALS Ign Retard Table
This table contains the ignition adjustment while ALS is active. Postive values
in the table result in ignition retardataion.


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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by kevhaywire on Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:31 am

Thanks mate, for the kind words Very Happy I know you have high standards so that's high praise indeed!

I am very happy with my VRT at the moment. It drives exactly how I want it to and that's all you can hope to achieve in any project Very Happy And yep, I'll be glad to assist with yours if you go that way!

Anyway, yep flat shifting and ALS is all part of the "nice stuff" you get with as standard with a lot of standalones Very Happy The DTA has both of those features also, but ALS is a potentially very expensive feature to use as it makes the turbo and exhaust valves run extremely hot. In fact, many commerical turbos won't handle it and is why most Rally turbos are built with special MARAM turbine shafts and wheels which are made to withstand the heat. AND....your neighbours will hate you!! Every time you drive up the road, the retarded igntion when flatting and ALS'ing creates almighty bangs from the exhaust Very Happy

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Re: DTA for Dummies

Post by ctwg60 on Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:25 am

kevhaywire wrote:Every time you drive up the road, the retarded igntion when flatting and ALS'ing creates almighty bangs from the exhaust Very Happy

Cool! Laughing Get 'em back for their nuisance dogs and b'stard loud paranoid burglar alarms!

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