Twin Charging.....super and turbo....the 'Superbocharged'

Yup that is definitely a twin g60. Christ, it revs well!

You see, I'm not completely nuts about DIY twin charging!

i think a twin(turbo+charger) would have a diff feel.
That does sound strong tho.
But imagine just as the charger is finished providing it's laughs a fresh wave of turbo torque pinging you towards the horizon.

..
oh my.

You see, I'm not completely mental.....

Any ideas how to get youtube working so i can see the vid.

I read about the twinG60 in PVW a couple of years ago, it gave 2 bar which remember that will provide enough boost for most and zero lag, no need to have the turbo too. Easier to plumb just connect both charger outlets to the same boost pipe to intercooler, Rob is the master in getting the belt set up right.

Super and turbo really is way too much work, honestly.

junkie wrote:Any ideas how to get youtube working so i can see the vid.

I read about the twinG60 in PVW a couple of years ago, it gave 2 bar which remember that will provide enough boost for most and zero lag, no need to have the turbo too. Easier to plumb just connect both charger outlets to the same boost pipe to intercooler, Rob is the master in getting the belt set up right.

Super and turbo really is way too much work, honestly.

yeah but I like an impractical challenge.
I rekon they would both require some fabrication tbh.
I'm keeping an open mind to it all anyway
I wouldn't use a clutch system.Would keep it simple.
I would just feed the turbo into the charger.
Intercooling would be an issue and I guess mapping like any engine install would make or break it.
[flash

So you'd go turbo into supercharger, rather than the other way round? I suppose that trying to push air through a turbo would cause extra strain on the turbine blades and shaft??

Yeah I definately wouldn't force feed a turbo from a charger tbh.I would of thought it would be better the other way around.The charger should be up and running by the time a moderate sized turbo was coming on boost.

Or rather than a clucth system,just have the charger free wheel once the turbo starts producing x amount of boost by diverting boost straight into the TB via your charge cooling and away from the input of the charger.

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You can't really tell from the text or the pictures how he's run the boost, although, it dos look like turbo first. I wonder if it bypasses the supercharger above a certain threshold?

i read an article a while ago in an american vw/bmw tuning magazine (while i was in kandahar - hopefully you can let me off!)

there was a twin-charged e46 328 in there.
iirc they got round that by having the supercharger on a clutched pulley (or something similar - basically it disengaged over about 3-3.5k rpm), then the turbo took over.
also they had separate intakes for each blower, before they went into a common intake to the throttle body (there were some 1-way valves involved i think)
i thin that's how they did it anyway - google it and you might find some more stuff out

keep us posted - love original stuff like this

Yeah, I'd have thought one plenum with two inlets, or two inlets into the intercooler would have been the way forward, having butterflies in each pipe would be the wayforward too with the supercharger clutched, reason being, at low RPM, the turbo experiencing back pressure from the supercharger could cause it to stall, and at high RPM, the supercharger experiencing back pressure would put a lot of strain on it, and the drive belt.

mrbeige wrote:So, for example, take a 2.0l 16v engine, strap an Eaton M62 and say a GT28 to it. how would you go about routing the charge? Into the Eaton first then on to the Turbo would be the most logical, but once the turbo spools up, will the super be able to deliver enough air, or will it start to choke the turbo? What I mean is, would you want to bypass the Eaton once you've spooled?

Turbo compressors are very delicate, so if if you do it that way I reckon you'll end up bending them? Directing the S/C's boost over the turbine wheel might work though and I'm sure it could be done using existing EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirc) technology? Would need a redesigned turbine housing though, or a dedicated port on the manifold very close to the turbine wheel and it would have to be post lambda too.....hmmmm, tricky!

The way JD Engineering did their's makes sense in theory.

Take a 20VT engine with a turbo and a G60. The turbo's compressor output feeds the G60's inlet and the combined boost is then intercooled before entering the intake.

When the turbo is out of it's boost zone, the G60 helps turbo spool by effectively pulling air through the compressor. When the turbo comes on boost, the G60 is compressing the already compressed air still further, so in theory it's an easy thing to do. In practice Mr Dik used 3 ECUs!! A G60 Ecu, 20VT ECU plus another one, can't remember what that one was for. Bonkers!

I'm sure it could be done a little easier than that, but his way works very well by all accounts.

3 things concern me with that method though:-

1) Intake charge temp. 70-80 deg C (depending on boost) out of the turbo into G60 Plus the G60's own heat = very hot indeed. You would need a very good intercooler that's top of league division 1, plus some supplementary cooling I would imagine, such as meth injection or petrol spray onto the G60's scroll.

2) Turbo lifespan. Turbos are designed to produce boost relative to exhaust pressure and volume, so I'm not sure how well it would take to being forced to make boost outside of it's comfort zone by being 'sucked on' by an S/C. I'm also not sure how much of a restriction shoving boost into a supercharger would present to the turbo. Boost surging is a bad enough problem as it is, without shoving an S/C into the mix to complicate matters It would work though, but for how long is anyone's guess. Careful matching of turbo and S/C flow rates is essential tho.

3) If the turbo throws a blade or if the turbo sucks in something harder than ally, you'll lose both the turbo AND the S/C, but I doubt anyone mad enough to build a Superbocharged engine would worry about that!

Well if used a great big feck off GT30Which im sure is way oversized compared to the grenade. He also used the 3 throttle bodies did he not.

Dunno, didn't read the whole article but additional throttles would indeed be needed to avoid excess boost and noise at low rpms.

The GT30 is far from feck off big, it's actually a tiddler relatively speaking

Frame size wise its the same as your small 35 is it not. Relatively speaking its huge with relation to airflow compared to the grenade as you said flow rates would need to be matched, well put 2 grenades on then. Suppose he can put strain on his stuff though as he owns 1 of the best tuning outfits in europe.

Surely you'd be better having two separate feeds into the intake, rather than compond charging it? As Kev says, you wouldn't want to take out both chargers in the event of a failure.

So if you were to have two separate feeds into one inlet, how would you go about switching between the two, or could you use some sort of one-way valve?